CAFCASS Experiences

[Ash]

How long does it take roughly for the courts to reply back once they receive the cafcass report, my 1st hearing was a week ago and still not heard anything back

When you say the first hearing was last week - do you mean a gatekeeping hearing, or a hearing you attended (even if by video link). You're supposed to get the Cafcass letter/report before the first hearing (assuming it's an actual hearing and not a gatekeeping hearing where parents aren't present).

 

[blindex]

They have said there will be a section 7 report but also said that I should be able to see my Children . Cafcass put report in on Friday to court just didn’t know how long it takes roughly to a directional hearing then final hearing but just wanna see my kids

Apologies, I'm not sure I follow you. Did CAFCASS completed the section 7 report? Have you seen it?

 

[DaddyD]

When you say the first hearing was last week - do you mean a gatekeeping hearing, or a hearing you attended (even if by video link). You're supposed to get the Cafcass letter/report before the first hearing (assuming it's an actual hearing and not a gatekeeping hearing where parents aren't present).

I had the cafcass letter that had my quota in and my ex’s version,and the cafcass recommendation we wasn’t present at the hearing so I presume it may be gatekeeping hearing

 

[DaddyD]

Apologies, I'm not sure I follow you. Did CAFCASS completed the section 7 report? Have you seen it?

No they said the local authorities will need to complete the section 7 report.

 

[blindex]

No they said the local authorities will need to complete the section 7 report.

Ok, I'm not sure about the Local Authority timelines. Cafcass was taking up to 15 weeks to complete the section 7 report. I suggest you contact the Local Authority to get a timeline. Once the LA has given you a date you need to contact the court to set a directions hearing if one has not been set yet immediately after the production of the report. Does that make sense?

 

[DaddyD]

Ok the cafcass recommendation states a section 7 is needed to see where the kids will live and this will fall into that local authorities as they are the ones that assessed the case first even though they was useless, they completed there not as far as I’m aware and then cafcass interviewed me and my wife on the phone then sent it to the courts to decide

 

[StayStrong]

Ok the cafcass recommendation states a section 7 is needed to see where the kids will live and this will fall into that local authorities as they are the ones that assessed the case first even though they was useless, they completed there not as far as I’m aware and then cafcass interviewed me and my wife on the phone then sent it to the courts to decide

So therefore Childrens Services to where you live will call you and set about producing a s7 report rather than cafcass cos you are already known to them.

This will need to be in the timeframe set by the court.

For me it was court ordered start of July, produced by mid Sept, hearing scheduled for Oct (month dates changed but that is the schedule).

Wait for the call from your local Childrens Services. Mine was from a student who told me her mentor was also on the call: the report was totally shitty and entirely befitting of a student "guided" by someone(her mentor) who told me she didn't usually deal with cases like this but much more serious stuff such as sexual molestation and exploitation. I was filled with confidence as a result of finding this out! Not.

SS.

 

[SoulDad]

Had my cafcass call yesterday. They called promptly at the time they stated in their letter. Dead on 1pm. They started by asking a few personal details. Ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation etc. They then asked what I'm wanting from the child arrangements order (which is equal share care, lives with both parents order). She asked me why, to which I went through all of the reasons why this arrangement would benefit the children. They had already done their safeguarding checks and said there were no issues. They asked me if I had any concerns about the children's current emotional wellbeing with the mother. I told them about some recent incidents whereby the children had been honest and vocal to me about what their mother had been telling them to say (I.e. that they don't want to live with me because it's inconvenient with their clothes, books etc and that I live to far away from their school (I'm only 6 miles away) and my 11 year old son asked me if I'll be able to manage and take care of them. Something an 11 year old just does not say. He was crying when he told me so I probed further to find out that his mother had been telling him this. My 6 year old girl is more innocent and cannot be manipulated. She told me that her mother told her not to listen to dad. Anyway explained to the cafcass officer all of these concerns but madenit clear that I understand that the mother is scared of losing the children and probably still trying to get over and accept the separation. And also that this all started when she believed I had a partner even though I denied it. I was trying to be reasonable and understanding of my exs situation but made it clear it was about her losing the children and not about what's best for them. She asked me about any concerns of drug or alcohol abuse. And that was really it. At the end she said that they won't be interviewing the children because it sounds like we both know what's best. She also said they won't be representing in court and they'll only file their report and it'll be solely the judges decision. Really just a templated, check box exercise but I think she realised we're a normal family and just have personal differences but no serious issues.

Ok, so cafcass report arrived a few days a go. In summary, no safeguarding issues. Mother reported allegations of historical drug abuse but said the children were safe in my care today. Cafcass reported there is no evidence of drug misuse.
Cafcass advised that children would benefit spending time with both parents and that both children enjoyed spending time with both parents. Cafcass also advised that because there were no safeguarding concerns and also felt that both parents were well positioned to know what's best for the children that they (cafcass) would play no further role in the court and that it would be down to the judge to discuss with parents the best course of action. So far so good as application was very straightforward.
However, the ex's position statement arrived after (as they were late with the submission). Again, it states drug misuse in the past and that I also have gambling problem. Also some things about taking the children away on holiday with my "girlfriend". (She thinks that the judge will badly on this as she told me in person one day). She also mentioned that I work on weekends and often leave the kids with my parents (I've never once done this). She said the children should stay with her as she is the main carer and that was it. Nothing about why the children would benefit from this. It was an extremely poor position statement in my opinion. She's also filing a section 7. Not sure what for but I'm assuming cafcass will need to get involved again. I'll have to speak to my solicitor.
Anyway, one other thing, my ex, her mum and sister asked to speak to me. I was reluctant to agree but I stupidly did in the end. In that meeting, which was at my home, they begged me to withdraw the CAO. After a long discussion I managed to convince her that we should draw up a consent order so I'll speak to my solicitor about it but I'm quite sure she won't agree after speaking with her solicitor. She's seems very ill advised and also lacks a lot knowledge in family law. Since I've separated its all I've been researching and discussing with other people that have been through it. I don't think she quite understood that a consent order of 50/50 living with both parents is what I applied for. Anyway let's see what happens.

 

[Ash]

That is great news. Don't withdraw the application until a Consent order is drawn up, wording agreed by both solicitors, and it's been sent to court for sealing and you have the copy in your hands! Also quite important to keep things in writing, not verbal in case you need to prove anything later. So you could email your ex and say something like

"Further to our discussion, I agree it would be better if we can agree things amicably for a consent order - this can either be achieved via solicitors approving wording for an order to be sent to court, or actually at the first hearing. I think it would be simpler to agree things at the first hearing and the consent order drawn up at court on the day and the matter is then finalised. Using solicitors can get quite expensive for us both trying to agree all the details back and forth. I am simply seeking a consent order that states the children live with both of us for equal time - with me every Monday and Tuesday night plus every other week-end during term time and half the school holidays and with you every Wednesday and Thursday night plus every other week-end during term time and half the school holidays. Or the other way round - Monday Tuesday with you, Wednesday Thursday with me. This is a 2-2-5-5 schedule. So two nights a week one week followed by 5 nights with each of us (the 2 midweek nights tacked onto the week-end friday through to Monday morning).

Please let me know if this is agreeable - we can keep talking. I think it's important the children should be allowed to see both parents as equally loved and equally important and spend significant time with both of us and have quality time with both of us. You are always their Mum and I am always their Dad and those are the two important relationships."

See what her reaction to that is. As you say I doubt she will agree. You can run up massive bills with solicitors arguing back and forth. Another case on here tried for weeks to get a consent order but the wording wasn't agreed as the ex wanted so many loopholes and conditions in it! So it ended up in court anyway after spending thousands on solicitors (and they did get a 50/50 order).

On the other hand it looks good if you can show you've tried to resolve the matter amicably and the email above would be good evidence of that. Her response will also show her attitude.

As her position statement does! Yes she has no arguments there (especially when Cafcass have said no welfare issues) and she;'s making it clear she just doesn't like the idea of you having a girlfriend.

I agree that Mums and parents generally are uneducated in these matters and she may genuinely believe she is the Mum and the only important and main parent. The law needs to change - so everyone knows both parents are equal at the time of separation. Or she might just be trying it on.

She can't apply for a Section 7! It's Cafcass that decides if there should be a section 7. Are you sure it doesn't say C7? A C7 is the form she returns after getting your application - her response to the application. But that should have been before Cafcass checks and letter.

If she is going to ask for a Section 7 at court, that might happen but I doubt it because Cafcass have said no welfare issues and they will no longer be involved.

Now if an ex has a solicitor and pushes this point at first hearing the Judge might say - ok adjourn for drug testing - which delays things and months before another first hearing. But I think her request in her position statement will be ignored (although it does sound like she has a solicitor).

 

[StayStrong]

If she is going to ask for a Section 7 at court, that might happen but I doubt it because Cafcass have said no welfare issues and they will no longer be involved.

I don't doubt it, past personal experience says otherwise. CAFCASS clearly want out, they won't attend, and despite no welfare or safeguarding issues if she makes those allegations a Mag Bench will be advised to go S7 route and a DJ likely to be minded too. Any small doubt placed in front of them immediately directs to the 'err on the side of caution'.

SS.

 

[blindex]

Fundamentally for Cafcass Safeguarding = Domestic Abuse/Child Abuse.

If Cafcass says there are no safeguarding concerns there is no domestic abuse.

No domestic abuse = No Section 7 report

It will look bad on her if she now decides to make a barrage of abuse and false claims.

Continue to be polite, focus on the kids and propose constructive solutions

 

[StayStrong]

Fundamentally for Cafcass Safeguarding = Domestic Abuse/Child Abuse.

If Cafcass says there are no safeguarding concerns there is no domestic abuse.

No domestic abuse = No Section 7 report

It will look bad on her if she now decides to make a barrage of abuse and false claims.

Continue to be polite, focus on the kids and propose constructive solutions

I agree with blindex with the last sentence, it is a mantra. Nonetheless, "no domestic abuse = No Section 7 report" is not correct ime.

No domestic abuse = no FFH.

A S7 is entirely different and intended to assess the welfare attributes for the child/children where allegations have been made regarding the suitability of a parent to provide care to those young people.

Take care, SS.

 

[Ash]

It will come down to whoever is taking the hearing. If your ex uses a solicitor and continues to claim welfare issues and drug usage then her solicitor could ask the court for drug tests - and as Stay Strong says, the courts err on the side of caution. A good position statement, pre-empting these things might help. If her solicitor pushes for a section 7 report, it's possible the court might ask Cafcass to do one. You could do to argue against that being necessary but if the court decides to do one, go along with it.

How old are your kids? Ex's seem to think section 7 reports are a way of getting the kids wishes heard so they can coach them to say what they want.

 

[Ash]

Don't want to dampen things though - your Cafcass report is very positive. However I have also heard of cases where ex's keep raising allegations at every hearing and asking for more and more investigation and causing more and more delay. Another reason why keeping things documented and in writing can help. If her reply to your email shows that she did indeed want to discuss a consent order than that undermines her claims of allegations because she's happy to let you see the kids. Are you seeing them at the moment or not?

All you can do, if you don't have representation, is put forward a sound position statement, and keep polite and child focused as above. If you do have legal representation they could argue against anything your ex's solicitor tries to persuade the court to do.

 

[blindex]

I agree with blindex with the last sentence, it is a mantra. Nonetheless, "no domestic abuse = No Section 7 report" is not correct ime.

No domestic abuse = no FFH.

A S7 is entirely different and intended to assess the welfare attributes for the child/children where allegations have been made regarding the suitability of a parent to provide care to those young people.

Take care, SS.

You're right, but since there were no safeguarding concerns in the 'safeguarding letter', and it is quite positive in the main, there is less of a rationale to order a section 7. Which of course can happen if the ex starts making false allegations....

 

[StayStrong]

You're right, but since there were no safeguarding concerns in the 'safeguarding letter', and it is quite positive in the main, there is less of a rationale to order a section 7. Which of course can happen if the ex starts making false allegations....

Yes blindex, there is less of a rationale but rationale, logic and common sense based on a 'professional's opinion' is absent when the directive remains that should there be any new allegation made regarding a child's welfare something other than a conclusion to private law proceedings should take place.

Ergo, the hamster wheel revolves again and the futher delay is deeply damaging to the healing of a child subject to her or his parents' decision to seperate.

There are so many fundamental and intrinsic wrongs in the UK's system it is beyond part repair. Alas, I see no willingness to radically change it, no forthcoming legislation, not even a tweak.

That means we need to help each other as best we can for the sake of the children involved. I'm grateful for this exchange.

SS.

 

[blindex]

Yes blindex, there is less of a rationale but rationale, logic and common sense based on a 'professional's opinion' is absent when the directive remains that should there be any new allegation made regarding a child's welfare something other than a conclusion to private law proceedings should take place.

Ergo, the hamster wheel revolves again and the futher delay is deeply damaging to the healing of a child subject to her or his parents' decision to seperate.

There are so many fundamental and intrinsic wrongs in the UK's system it is beyond part repair. Alas, I see no willingness to radically change it, no forthcoming legislation, not even a tweak.

That means we need to help each other as best we can for the sake of the children involved. I'm grateful for this exchange.

SS.

It's a flipping tragedy. I had contact with daughter for nine months uninterrupted. The last hearing my ex was shot through the eyes by the judge, lots of progress were made and 99% of the final order was agreed.

Alas, sleepover started with my son, the mother freaked out and for the last 2 months my daughter has refused to join me. Contact with my son who is 9 is going fab and he is having the time of his life in the sleepovers, my daughter who is 4 is being traumatised by the mother. I'm past section 7 and all that bullshit.
I'm now planning the next move as there is a final welfare hearing in October, so trying to go for an enforcement order is pointless because it won't be heard before that and I run the risk of being seen as 'adversarial'....

 

[proud_dad]

It's a flipping tragedy. I had contact with daughter for nine months uninterrupted. The last hearing my ex was shot through the eyes by the judge, lots of progress were made and 99% of the final order was agreed.

Alas, sleepover started with my son, the mother freaked out and for the last 2 months my daughter has refused to join me. Contact with my son who is 9 is going fab and he is having the time of his life in the sleepovers, my daughter who is 4 is being traumatised by the mother. I'm past section 7 and all that bullshit.
I'm now planning the next move as there is a final welfare hearing in October, so trying to go for an enforcement order is pointless because it won't be heard before that and I run the risk of being seen as 'adversarial'....

Blindex, you have lots of positives that you need to emphasise in statements, such as the fact that your ex had no problems with your kids living with you as a co-parent for 9-months (you will evidence this with a text from her saying "pick the kids up at this time" for example), a safeguarding letter that stated that there were no welfare concerns from a qualified court appointed CAFCASS officer and that you have been playing an active role in their welfare (care, school, health, play). A S7 report is a pain, but you can use this your advantage to show that you are the co-parent who is child outcome focussed.

 

[SoulDad]

That is great news. Don't withdraw the application until a Consent order is drawn up, wording agreed by both solicitors, and it's been sent to court for sealing and you have the copy in your hands! Also quite important to keep things in writing, not verbal in case you need to prove anything later. So you could email your ex and say something like

"Further to our discussion, I agree it would be better if we can agree things amicably for a consent order - this can either be achieved via solicitors approving wording for an order to be sent to court, or actually at the first hearing. I think it would be simpler to agree things at the first hearing and the consent order drawn up at court on the day and the matter is then finalised. Using solicitors can get quite expensive for us both trying to agree all the details back and forth. I am simply seeking a consent order that states the children live with both of us for equal time - with me every Monday and Tuesday night plus every other week-end during term time and half the school holidays and with you every Wednesday and Thursday night plus every other week-end during term time and half the school holidays. Or the other way round - Monday Tuesday with you, Wednesday Thursday with me. This is a 2-2-5-5 schedule. So two nights a week one week followed by 5 nights with each of us (the 2 midweek nights tacked onto the week-end friday through to Monday morning).

Please let me know if this is agreeable - we can keep talking. I think it's important the children should be allowed to see both parents as equally loved and equally important and spend significant time with both of us and have quality time with both of us. You are always their Mum and I am always their Dad and those are the two important relationships."

See what her reaction to that is. As you say I doubt she will agree. You can run up massive bills with solicitors arguing back and forth. Another case on here tried for weeks to get a consent order but the wording wasn't agreed as the ex wanted so many loopholes and conditions in it! So it ended up in court anyway after spending thousands on solicitors (and they did get a 50/50 order).

On the other hand it looks good if you can show you've tried to resolve the matter amicably and the email above would be good evidence of that. Her response will also show her attitude.

As her position statement does! Yes she has no arguments there (especially when Cafcass have said no welfare issues) and she;'s making it clear she just doesn't like the idea of you having a girlfriend.

I agree that Mums and parents generally are uneducated in these matters and she may genuinely believe she is the Mum and the only important and main parent. The law needs to change - so everyone knows both parents are equal at the time of separation. Or she might just be trying it on.

She can't apply for a Section 7! It's Cafcass that decides if there should be a section 7. Are you sure it doesn't say C7? A C7 is the form she returns after getting your application - her response to the application. But that should have been before Cafcass checks and letter.

If she is going to ask for a Section 7 at court, that might happen but I doubt it because Cafcass have said no welfare issues and they will no longer be involved.

Now if an ex has a solicitor and pushes this point at first hearing the Judge might say - ok adjourn for drug testing - which delays things and months before another first hearing. But I think her request in her position statement will be ignored (although it does sound like she has a solicitor).

Thanks Ash. Yes I like the wording you suggested for my email response to get things going. I cam speak to my solicitor and get it water tight as possible and then send her the email from me first. It might look less aggressive and if she does agree then get it drawn up by solicitor.

I just checked her position statement again and it is a section 7. See below:

"THE MOTHER’S POSITION​

• The mother wants to promote a healthy relationship between the children and their father. However, the children are young and the father lives far away from the children’s schooling and leisure activities for there to be frequent overnight stays during the week, on term time. It is concerning to mother that father lacks insight as to the impact of such overnight stays, on the children and their needs and so mother seeks to be guided by CAFCASS and their recommendations.
• The Mother would request that the court make the following directions:
  • Cafcass to prepare a section 7 report confirming their recommendations for the parties moving forward.
  • DRA to be listed on the first open date after CAFCASS has sent their s.7 report.
  • Both parties to shall file position statements in advance of the DRA with the court and the other party, setting out their proposal for contact.
• Further submissions may be made after taking further instructions at court."

I find the above very strange and I'm a bit confused by it to be honest. I honestly question whether they (both her and her solicitor) know what they are doing and asking for.
PS. I live 7 miles away from their schools. Takes about 15 mins. CAFCASS already told me it wasn't a problem. I have a feeling that her position statement was prepared before cafcass report although sent after. Its honestly strange. I'm sure this will confuse the courts and judge too

 

[SoulDad]

It will come down to whoever is taking the hearing. If your ex uses a solicitor and continues to claim welfare issues and drug usage then her solicitor could ask the court for drug tests - and as Stay Strong says, the courts err on the side of caution. A good position statement, pre-empting these things might help. If her solicitor pushes for a section 7 report, it's possible the court might ask Cafcass to do one. You could do to argue against that being necessary but if the court decides to do one, go along with it.

How old are your kids? Ex's seem to think section 7 reports are a way of getting the kids wishes heard so they can coach them to say what they want.

She keeps making allegations about historical drug misuse and gambling addiction. Both lies and absolutely zero evidence of this. I'm not even reacting to this but have no issue doing a drugs test but this will take time through courts so unless a judge orders it (which I doubt it as there is no evidence and she's already stated historical use and also said to cafcass the children were safe with me now and no concerns) im not even entertaining this.
Kids are 12 (boy) and 6 (girl). This is the thing Ash, both kids are being vocal about spending more time with me. I really wanted cafcass to speak to them previously but they said there is no reason. She's having to manipulate them (as the kids told me) in readiness for the call and the only reason she has against me having them is that it's inconvenient with their belongings and school etc. She doesn't realise this is not a valid argument. Her side of the argument is all very strange. It's either really really bad or she's up to something really really sneaky.