Mother’s relocation abroad application

[3ML WMD]

@3ML WMD . Any update on your case. Were u able to win the relocation case?

Hi there,

I had last day of my three day hearing yesterday (25/10/23) before Judge. I did some research on him and have read some concerning things! On the first day he seemed to be swaying on this side of M, who ill get to in a minute, but by the conclusion of proceedings I feel that he had more of a balanced view of things. We'll get a written judgement in a week but I have no idea which way it will swing. Just for context, my daughter is 17 months old and her mum has been trying to remove her permanently since she was 8 months old


These were the main points to contest:

mother's isolation - Lies, she has a wide network of friends, a few of which have reported back to her when they have seen me out. She has a big circle of friends who she regularly connects with aswell as having her mother stay over for months at a time.

Mother's Immigration status - I was fortunate (comparatively speaking) to have an affordable Immigration DAB who could poke holes in her imagination argument. She tried to trick the court to thinking she could be deported in 60 days which just wasn't true

Ability to work: Because she has delayed applying for an updated visa, this means that it has restricted her ability to apply for jobs somewhat. This again, was clearly done deliberately to frustrate the court and force them into a decision. My DAB identified ways she could work around the system to secure employment.

Bogus visa application: At the end of the first hearing day, the judge asked for a copy of M's Visa application. When it arrived the next day, she had filled out the application and basically asked the home office to send her home. There was no mention of child arrangements and no mention of my daughter being British or having a British father. Again, a ploy to essentially force the courts hand.

Earnings: M has work for two massive private investment firms and earned close to 400k total in 6 years, yet she claims to be running out of money. She provided bank statements from 3 months ago, but I know she tucks money away into a separate American account but there was no way of seing this. She also claimed that she had no idea how much she received by way of bonuses over the years, again a big fat dirty lie.
Annoyingly the judge didn't allow the request for more statements, but hopefully he can do the maths.

I don't think I can sum it all up because that would literally be 100 pages, but Cafcass was in agreement with me that my daughter should remain mainly because of her age. The officer said that she couldn't make an absolute recommendation because she was unsure about Ms Immigration status.

Ms solicitors cross examined me and I spoke in a firm and informed way, her KC barrister at one point said 'im the one asking the questions here'. He had nothing, just a bunch of lies and misinformation, I actually quite enjoyed it. Im not sure how the judge will view it, but quite frankly I don't care, I spoke from the heart and I was happy I did. Their final submissions were just an attempt to criticise me and my candid view of the mother. They also poked holes in the Cafcass officer who ultimately recommended that my daughter should stay. There was very little to explain how and why moving would be in the best interests of my daughter. Finally and probably most alarmingly, the criticised me for wanted shared care!! Saying 'he will stop at nothing until he gets 50/50'. They said that in cross examination AND in their final submissions!


My barrister said I need to prepare because if the judge thinks that M is actually on the poverty line and is closing in on destitution, then he will go on the side of caution and let her go with my daughter. Theres lots more to say, but thats a summary of where im currently at.

 

[Ash]

Good to have an update from you. I hope your barrister was better than theirs! Her Barrister's argument that you would "stop at nothing until you got 50/50 is nasty, which is to be expected, but is also missing the point - you could have asked for sole residency if ex moves abroad! Assume you have done?"

So was this a final hearing or just a hearing for the relocation aspect?

Yes your ex is playing the sympathy card. How did your ex's cross examination go?

 

[mikeayo1891]

Yeah i agree with you Ash. @3ML WMD could have asked for a transfer on residency as an option. I would even go as far as voluntarily offering to pay for her flight up to 3 times a year for her to come see her child to show the judge that i am willing to go the extra mile to have her in daughter's life at my own expense. I wonder what her and barrister's response to that will be. Lol

Keep us updated when you get the judgement. Wish u all the best.

 

[3ML WMD]

Good to have an update from you. I hope your barrister was better than theirs! Her Barrister's argument that you would "stop at nothing until you got 50/50 is nasty, which is to be expected, but is also missing the point - you could have asked for sole residency if ex moves abroad! Assume you have done?"

So was this a final hearing or just a hearing for the relocation aspect?

Yes your ex is playing the sympathy card. How did your ex's cross examination go?

Hi Ash,

It was a final 3 day hearing.

So this is where things get slightly tricky. The Cafcass officer recommended in her initial report that if mum gets deported that my daughter should go with her as it would be emotionally damaging if she had to make such a big change.

I asked my barrister about offering to care for my daughter on at least a temporary basis, until Ms Immigration forms are decided. He wasn't keen on it, and I had basically persuade him to put in his final submissions. He said because I don't spend alot of time with her currently, it would be hard to sway the court to make such a big jump. My argument was, if she goes to the states that's an even bigger jump and without her dad.


My ex did as expected, damsel in distress, blah blah, blah. I don't know if it worked or not but she said what she thought would work. My barrister systematically broke down her finances, and also broke down how badly she had filled out the forms, to which she didn't have much to say. She also denied that she had not prioritised the relationship between my daughter and I, when there is zero evidence to support that she has. Since proceedings have begun (a year ago) she has offered me one extra hour ontop of what the court ordered, and my barrister pointed that out quite skillfully.

Ultimately, I couldn't quite work out what the judge was thinking as he didn't say much after the first day, but he's given himself a week to think it over.

 

[mikeayo1891]

Hi Ash,

It was a final 3 day hearing.

So this is where things get slightly tricky. The Cafcass officer recommended in her initial report that if mum gets deported that my daughter should go with her as it would be emotionally damaging if she had to make such a big change.

I asked my barrister about offering to care for my daughter on at least a temporary basis, until Ms Immigration forms are decided. He wasn't keen on it, and I had basically persuade him to put in his final submissions. He said because I don't spend alot of time with her currently, it would be hard to sway the court to make such a big jump. My argument was, if she goes to the states that's an even bigger jump and without her dad.


My ex did as expected, damsel in distress, blah blah, blah. I don't know if it worked or not but she said what she thought would work. My barrister systematically broke down her finances, and also broke down how badly she had filled out the forms, to which she didn't have much to say. She also denied that she had not prioritised the relationship between my daughter and I, when there is zero evidence to support that she has. Since proceedings have begun (a year ago) she has offered me one extra hour ontop of what the court ordered, and my barrister pointed that out quite skillfully.

Ultimately, I couldn't quite work out what the judge was thinking as he didn't say much after the first day, but he's given himself a week to think it over.

I bet if this case was in States and the kid was an american citizen with a British mother, no chance their judges will allow any relocation to a Britain. Americans judges will always keep their kids in the country but i feel british judges dont see it a priority.

 

[Ash]

Usually for a relocation to be approved, the ex would need to have a job lined up and argue why this would benefit the child. I can see it's a tricky one for the Judge if your ex is basically saying she will get deported. Was the argument made that she is quite capable of getting another well paid job in the Uk?

 

[3ML WMD]

Usually for a relocation to be approved, the ex would need to have a job lined up and argue why this would benefit the child. I can see it's a tricky one for the Judge if your ex is basically saying she will get deported. Was the argument made that she is quite capable of getting another well paid job in the Uk?

Well she is saying she has applied for 250 jobs in the UK and heard nothing back. I know she hasnt applied or she hasn't applied properly but again its hard to establish when there are no receipts. She has 3 jobs lined up in the US with massive pay packets, so she will be able provide and has offered to fly me out three times a year to see my daughter.

Sound's great, but im telling you it would categorically be the worst thing that could happen if this is allowed. While I don't worry about my daughters physical safety, she has been here for 17 months and has begun to establish a life here. Our relationship will effectively be over once her mum gets her there.

She is able to find a job here but doesn't want to, her case would've been easy to counter if she had been successful in securing a job. She knows that so just didn't get one, she was very clear that she wanted to leave, so I don't know why she pretend she was going to try and stay.

My barrister said, its down to whether the mum's credibility is in question, and whether the judge feels mum is doing all this just to keep me away from my daughter. I can't say whats in his mind, but I hope he sees the facts that are infront of him.

 

[3ML WMD]

I bet if this case was in States and the kid was an american citizen with a British mother, no chance their judges will allow any relocation to a Britain. Americans judges will always keep their kids in the country but i feel british judges dont see it a priority.

I agree with this, I wouldn't even try if shes allowed to relocate.

 

[Ash]

That is the crux of the matter - is she relocating to prevent a relationship with you? Although Cafcass said if she was deported it wouldn't be good for the child to lose the Mother, that doesn't cover if the Mother CHOOSES to live out of the jurisdiction. And you know what? Plenty of Mums don't have jobs and sign on until they can find one!

The key to me seems to be whether your barrister got across how obstructive she had been about child spending time with you, and how she only decided to relocate AFTER you applied to court.

 

[3ML WMD]

Usually for a relocation to be approved, the ex would need to have a job lined up and argue why this would benefit the child. I can see it's a tricky one for the Judge if your ex is basically saying she will get deported. Was the argument made that she is quite capable of getting another well paid job in the Uk?

Also, the deportation argument was thrown out by my barrister, he said there's no chance of that happening any time in the next few years and laid out how careless she would have to be for that to happen. The worrying thing for the judge was that mum said she is going to run out of money next month and could be homeless. This is despite having a 60K payout from her redundancy in May and having 53K in her bank account by mid August. This is also in light of anticipating redundancy in November 22, moving out of her place in April 23 to a more expensive place (£700 more rent) and now saying she's running out of money.

I told the court that she has done this deliberately just so she could go, and her visa application sets that out quite clearly.

 

[Ash]

Regardless of what she said - evidence is the key. She isn't being deported at this time. She could move to cheaper accommodation. If she didn't provide evidence that she had applied for over 250 jobs then that is just hearsay.

 

[3ML WMD]

That is the crux of the matter - is she relocating to prevent a relationship with you? Although Cafcass said if she was deported it wouldn't be good for the child to lose the Mother, that doesn't cover if the Mother CHOOSES to live out of the jurisdiction. And you know what? Plenty of Mums don't have jobs and sign on until they can find one!

The key to me seems to be whether your barrister got across how obstructive she had been about child spending time with you, and how she only decided to relocate AFTER you applied to court.

The barrister got this across beautifully. Almost brought a tear to my eye. I had only two unsupervised visits before mum made the application to move permanently. He also mentioned that she had only offered 1 hour (in 5 months) and even that was after the court had set out an expectation that we would negotiate time. She couldn't produce a single piece of evidence that showed her being encouraging let alone offering time (something I said in cross examination). The Cafcass officer said that she was concerned that if we don't get along here, how are we supposed to co parent across the water?

 

[Ash]

Have you still been getting the interim time in the run up to the final hearing? I believe it was a couple of hours a week at your home and half day at week-ends wasn't it?

 

[3ML WMD]

Have you still been getting the interim time in the run up to the final hearing? I believe it was a couple of hours a week at your home and half day at week-ends wasn't it?

Yeah, it's 4 hours in the week and one overnight every other weekend. Its a really small amount of time.

 

[Ash]

It's still been regular time and the child has a relationship with you. It's not like the Mother is even proposing child spends all the holidays with you (ie every 6 weeks) and offering to bring the child to you!). I've seen some relocation cases where they have given the Mother permission to move but said child will live with Dad and the Mother will have to travel to see child - but that wasn't as far away as your ex is proposing to move to.

 

[3ML WMD]

Hows it going guys,

Bad news unfortunately, the judge allowed Ms relocation application. Its a sad result for my daughter, but it also highlighted the horrible family court system we have here. The judge is a disgusting horrible little man who did not read anything. Little details like my profession and the Cafcass officers name he got wrong, so I have no doubt that he did not read my evidence properly or listen to anything I said in the witness box. He believed her lie from the outset and accused me of being the controlling one! Something that 3 judges before him did not observe. He had a mountain of evidence to show that she was dishonest and did not value the relationship between my daughter and I, but he ignored it to take the easy way out.

I had three female judges who saw right through everything M was trying to do, the one and only male judge I had flipped everything upside down because he did not want to further sully his awful reputation with women. He was recently under the spotlight for making sexist remarks in a case and it made national media, there are also blogs where women are absolutely trashing him saying he is a pig. He no doubtly was cautious of this and didn't want to risk appeal from a woman who was claiming to be on the verge of homelessness.

Im sure I could appeal his decision as there are holes everywhere, but honestly what is the point? If M stays then all she will do is keep fighting for full control, and keep finding ways to make things difficult.

I understand now that this is game that favours mothers and better yet mothers who have money. It baffles me that a high court judge can say " The only benefit of X child staying in the UK is that she will see her father regularly". That is not a system that I would like to continue give my time and money to, not when its so blatantly biased.

As for the future, I am done fighting. It's taken over my life for last year and I just need a break. I have set up a google drive with absolutely everything in there pictures, emails, video messages, court documentation, the lot. When my daughter asks about what happened, the information will be there for her to see.

I commend the fathers who have the stomach to dedicate years of their lives to dealing with this because I couldn't think of anything worse. We have to be present as fathers and fight for our kids, but we also have to take care of ourselves. Remember, alot of the bullshit we experience is because of how the mum feels about us not because we are bad fathers. They want control over us and our lives and the kids are their greatest weapon.

I will be available for my daughter forever, but the burden of single parenting will be on her mum now. She wanted it all, now she has it.

In the meantime, I will get on with my life and begin the healing process which includes going to therapy. I want to thank Ash for his incredible work, he helped me immensely and gave some solid advice.

Stay strong fellas!

 

[Peanut 21]

This breaks my heart to read.
I understand you giving up the fight. You need to heal so you'll be there in the future for your child.

 

[Ash]

Please try and appeal this decision. You’ll get a different Judge.

 

[Ash]

Here some justifications for appeal

“There was a lack of balance in the judge’s findings in respect of the mother’s alleged medicalisation of her son; there had been no assessment of her ability to make a living in England and insufficient weight had been given to her history of promoting contact between her son and his father. In the circumstances, the mother’s application to relocate was remitted to a different judge for reconsideration.”

Child Contact and Overseas Relocation – Mother Wins High Court Appeal - DFA Law LLP Solicitors

Children thrive best when they have ready contact with both their parents. However, as one case involving the eight-year-old son of Polish parents showed, d ...

www.dfalaw.co.uk

 

[Ash]

I’ve moved the posts to a new thread so it didn’t get mixed up with Big Sam’s thread.