Request to move abroad with my daughter

[Big Sam]

Hello Everyone,

I have received an email from my ex wife stating that she has accepted a job abroad and wants my consent to take my daughter to live there with her, something I am certainly not going to agree with. I have PR, we separated in 2017 and divorced late 2018, my daughter will be 11 yrs old this coming August.

She will apply for a court order once I inform her I will not agree, what are the chances of me winning?

Since our split I have had a lot of contact with my daughter, overnight stays 6-10 nights a month and we share the holidays. I felt sick reading her email.

This is what she sent:

After much thought, research and deliberation we have decided to move to xxxxxx. There are many reasons for this, the main ones being -
* moving to be close to and have support from my family
* give X a better quality of life, including private schooling, activities, weather, health and well-being etc
* the cost of living here now is such that I cannot afford to live here, let alone find the rent for next month, this obviously has a knock on affect on X and she misses out on things weekly because of this
* I have been offered a job starting in x month which will change what I can offer X immensely, not only financially but also her quality of life as well as the quality of time I can spend with her.
These are just some of the reasons but it really will be a life changing experience for her.

I have obviously discussed this with her and she is very excited about it and can’t wait.

X's brother and sister will also be coming with us but will be returning regularly to the UK. This will mean that during the holidays, when she would like to come back and see you I can tie her flight in with one of them, alternatively you can visit her during the holidays when it suits us all.

Obviously I need your agreement to take her out of the UK and move to xxxxx and am hoping for X’s sake this can be a smooth transition.

Can you please let me know if you will sign a consent order allowing this so we can get the ball rolling or if we have to allow extra time to go down a different route.

If you have any questions, I’ll be happy to answer them.

Has anyone fought and won a case like this? Appreciate your help and comments before I contact a solicitor and send her a response.

 

[Peanut 21]

So you currently don't have a court order in place for the time she spends with you?

 

[Resolute]

Hello Everyone,

I have received an email from my ex wife stating that she has accepted a job abroad and wants my consent to take my daughter to live there with her, something I am certainly not going to agree with. I have PR, we separated in 2017 and divorced late 2018, my daughter will be 11 yrs old this coming August.

She will apply for a court order once I inform her I will not agree, what are the chances of me winning?

Since our split I have had a lot of contact with my daughter, overnight stays 6-10 nights a month and we share the holidays. I felt sick reading her email.

This is what she sent:

After much thought, research and deliberation we have decided to move to Dubai. There are many reasons for this, the main ones being -
* moving to be close to and have support from my family
* give D a better quality of life, including private schooling, activities, weather, health and well-being etc
* the cost of living here now is such that I cannot afford to live here, let alone find the rent for next month, this obviously has a knock on affect on Delilah and she misses out on things weekly because of this
* I have been offered a job starting in July which will change what I can offer D immensely, not only financially but also her quality of life as well as the quality of time I can spend with her.
These are just some of the reasons but it really will be a life changing experience for her.

I have obviously discussed this with her and she is very excited about it and can’t wait.

D’s brother and sister will also be coming with us but will be returning regularly to the UK. This will mean that during the holidays, when she would like to come back and see you I can tie her flight in with one of them, alternatively you can visit her during the holidays when it suits us all.

Obviously I need your agreement to take her out of the UK and move to Dubai and am hoping for Delilah’s sake this can be a smooth transition.

Can you please let me know if you will sign a consent order allowing this so we can get the ball rolling or if we have to allow extra time to go down a different route.

If you have any questions, I’ll be happy to answer them.

Has anyone fought and won a case like this? Appreciate your help and comments before I contact a solicitor and send her a response.

If any of the place or people names/initials are genuine, it might be a good idea to anonymise.

Look into the Hague Convention and signatories, that will show how protected you would be if the move goes ahead without your consent.

I think it would be a good idea to consider applying for a Prohibited Steps Order relating to removal of the child from the UK.

 

[Ash]

I've anonymised it. The country is a very long way from the Uk btw.

As Peanut said - do you currently have a court order at all or has it just been informal arrangements?

Basically it would be a relocation case. Your ex has clearly done her research in terms of acceptable reasons to move the child further away - eg closer to family and she says she has had a job offer (if that is actually true). Assume your ex is from another country.

I think you do need to try and prevent this. Probably the first step is to get some legal advice to be honest to know how to proceed. It's probably going to be a prohibited steps application. I wouldn't reply to that message right now either.

Whatever arguments your ex has, the fact is the child would be moved a long way away from a parent and a Judge would need to weigh up whether the benefits of the move outweight the familiarity and current relationship routine (I would hope that would be found in your favour as your daughter is a Uk citizen presumably even if your ex isn't originally from the Uk).

As you have probably also guessed - if she is living that far away, it would be very difficult to enforce any court ordered arrangements.

Perhaps you could let us know exactly what the current schedule is, how long that schedule has been going for and whether or not it is in a court order.

 

[proud_dad]

The email was clearly written by a solicitor.

I was at one stage worried my ex would try to relocate abroad. I managed to make contact with one of the top barristers specialising in leave to remove cases in 2018. This is what he sent me:

Dear XXXX,



The 2012 final data are published at [2015] Child and Family Law Quarterly 377 (“How Do Judges Decide Relocation Cases?”). There are no more recent research data– the MoJ does not collect data on this issue, so unless a researcher is (manually!) collecting court decisions, there is no way to know what is happening. I and my practitioner colleagues think that the current ‘success rate’ for applications for permanent leave to remove is about 50%, but it’s all quite anecdotal.



Best wishes,

XXXX

 

[Ash]

Sounds like maybe 50/50 chance then - but every situation will be different. These exes do seem to wait until the child is 11 before making these bold moves. I can see some strong arguments in your favour. Another Dad on here had something similar with all sorts of similar reasons, including not being able to afford rent and earning more money and a better lifestyle - and it was turned down by the courts.

I think rather than a reply to this, you need to be looking at an urgent prohibited steps application if she's talking about starting a new job in July. As part of that you could say that if Mrs Ex does choose to relocate, that your daughter should remain living with you and spend time with Mrs Ex in the holidays. Because basically it's not about where the Mother lives but where the child lives.

 

[Kyle]

A former colleague of mine used to lodge with me when he first started with us before he bought his own place. He had a CAO after splitting with his wife and his 10 and 12 year old's stayed over every other weekend. One Monday morning he came into work in bits because his ex had presented him with the same situation.

She had met another man 12 months previously and he wanted to move to Germany for work reasons and take her and the kids with him. Indefinitely. She tried to present the same argument, that it would be good for her and the kids and that he could visit in the summer or they could fly back to stay with him during the holidays, (at his expense). It worked out that he went from seeing his kids every other weekend to to just 3 times a year.

My colleague obviously refused, it went to court and he won. She was refused. But it will be different for every situation.

When deciding whether to grant leave to remove, the court will take several factors into account:

• Whether the plans are well-researched. She will have to show that she has researched where they will live, how she will generate an income, and where your child will go to school.
• If the application is genuine. She must show that there is a genuine reason for moving abroad, not simply to make it difficult for your child to see their other parent.
• How contact will continue with the other parent. Are there plans to ensure that the non-resident parent will continue to have meaningful contact with the child?
• The wants and needs of the child. Factors such as their age, background and their own wishes may be taken into account.
• How capable each parent is in meeting your child’s needs.
• The effect on the parent who wishes to relocate if the application for leave to remove is refused.
• The effect on the parent who refuses relocation if the application for leave to remove is granted.

This situation almost warrants a business case. A statement that outlines exactly why this is not in your child's best interest. A statement that is going to sway a court above and beyond anything the mother presents. Every positive thing about keeping contact with her father just the way it is.

If you do not take the matter to court to deny, its highly likely she will to obtain leave to remove. I wouldn't want to go into this unrepresented. July seems very unrealistic. Not to mention unreasonable.

Many solicitors offer a free 30 minutes of consultation. (There's nothing that say's you can only do this once!)

(If you think your child is going to be taken out of the country to live abroad without your consent in the next 48 hours, call 999 to report to the police. The police can issue a Port Alert which will prevent them leaving the country).

 

[Big Sam]

So you currently don't have a court order in place for the time she spends with you?

Hi,

Thank you for commenting, its appreciated. There is no court order on when she spends time with me, since we split in 2017 it has been every other weekend and up until recently every wednesday with all of the holidays being shared 50/50.

 

[Big Sam]

If any of the place or people names/initials are genuine, it might be a good idea to anonymise.

Look into the Hague Convention and signatories, that will show how protected you would be if the move goes ahead without your consent.

I think it would be a good idea to consider applying for a Prohibited Steps Order relating to removal of the child from the UK.

Thank you, I will take a look at that.

 

[Big Sam]

Thank you so much for all of your comments.

I saw my daughter today and told her I was thinking about things, 10 mins after I dropped her off she sent me a message saying that she wants to go, if I dont sign then she does not want to see me again as I will be taking away a better lifestyle for her, not an easy message to read at all.

I honestly have not got a clue what to do, I am 50/0 myself as to what the best option is...

Sign in and she is happy but I dont get to see her as much or dont sign, go to court and if I win she stays in the UK and decides she doesnt want to see me, I cant force her and my ex is very good and egging on this kind of behaviour.

Totally at a loss, its almost an impossible decision to make....

 

[Ash]

Ok so you have evidence now. Your ex has incited your daughter into sending a hostile text message and involved her in adult matters. I think this would help sway the case in your favour. In future, I think you need to avoid all mention of it to your daughter - it's purely for adults to discuss and your ex shouldn't have even mentioned it to your daughter without discussing with you first. Her behaviour will be seen for what it is and that will help your case.

You can't stop your ex moving wherever she wants. What you can do is stop your daughter being removed. There have been cases (one big one I remember) where the children were adamant they wanted to move and the court decided it wasn't in their best interests. And that is how things have to be explained to the kids after a result. The Judge listened to Mum and Dad and the Judge decided what was in your best interests as you're a child with two parents.

You are on very risky ground with no existing court order at the moment. It's just your word against hers how much time your daughter has been spending with you. And it's surprising how an ex can lie about such things, claiming "he hardly ever saw her" (I was gobsmacked).

If you let it go ahead you are very likely to lose your relationship with your daughter. And it's very likely a lot of these holidays won't take place if your ex "lets her decide" or rather encourages her to do something else. That is big.

It is also not good for the child to suddenly lose one parent. It sounds like your ex is using your daughter to manipulate you. As for "never want to see you again" - she wouldn't have much choice in that if she was living with you and her Mother went to live abroad! Whichever parent she is with, will become the norm for her. It's better the way it is now - where she has both parents in her life.

I suggest you apply for a prohibited steps order "To prevent the Mother moving the child out of the Uk" and on the same application ask for the historic schedule to be validated in a "lives with both parents" child arrangements order. As that is the case informally right now.

You have many arguments as to why your child should remain in the Uk. If the Mother wants to live that far away then ONE parent will only see the child occasionally for holidays - so really it comes down to - which parent is that going to be?

In some cases Judges have done something clever - like say the Mother will have to do the travelling to see the child if she wants to move.

I don't think you have any option here - you need to ask the court to determine the situation. As part of your application you can say that the child has unfortunately now been incited to tell you she never wants to see you again if you don't agree, but you feel she should not have been involved in these adult decisions without the parents discussing it first. And you don't believe those are her real wishes as she doesn't understand the enormity of the situation.

 

[proud_dad]

I don't think you have any option here - you need to ask the court to determine the situation. As part of your application you can say that the child has unfortunately now been incited to tell you she never wants to see you again if you don't agree, but you feel she should not have been involved in these adult decisions without the parents discussing it first. And you don't believe those are her real wishes as she doesn't understand the enormity of the situation.

Especially at the age of 10!

As Ash has said, GET THIS TO THE FAMILY COURT ASAP!

Get representation from a barrister that specialises in leave to remove / relocation cases.

 

[Kyle]

Your daughters mother has coaxed her (a 10 year old child) into accepting she should give up her father to help facilitate her mothers job abroad!

I think it's a very simple decision to make and is entirely based on fighting back against as what I see as some pretty unscrupulous manipulation.

Your little girl is a child. A minor. she doesn't know what's best for her. Losing her dad is not a path to a better lifestyle. She is only repeating what the mother is coaching her to say.

Going to live in a another country is not all a bed of roses. I'm an ex forces kid. I grew up in Germany, Hong Kong and Cyprus and struggled to adapt back to UK life after 18 years abroad and lost all relationships with my extended family.

This is a father and daughter bond at stake.

Keep all of these messages. Because it should be crystal clear to a Family Court that this is not fair or just. It's purely selfish manipulation by the mother to satisfy her selfish aims.

Court Form C100 (Child Arrangements Order/Prohibited Steps Order/Specific Issue Order):
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-c100-application-under-the-children-act-1989-for-a-child-arrangements-prohibited-steps-specific-issue-section-8-order-or-to-vary-or-discharge

I can pass you the details of a company that provides Direct Access Barristers.

 

[Big Sam]

Your daughters mother has coaxed her (a 10 year old child) into accepting she should give up her father to help facilitate her mothers job abroad!

I think it's a very simple decision to make and is entirely based on fighting back against as what I see as some pretty unscrupulous manipulation.

Your little girl is a child. A minor. she doesn't know what's best for her. Losing her dad is not a path to a better lifestyle. She is only repeating what the mother is coaching her to say.

Going to live in a another country is not all a bed of roses. I'm an ex forces kid. I grew up in Germany, Hong Kong and Cyprus and struggled to adapt back to UK life after 18 years abroad and lost all relationships with my extended family.

This is a father and daughter bond at stake.

Keep all of these messages. Because it should be crystal clear to a Family Court that this is not fair or just. It's purely selfish manipulation by the mother to satisfy her selfish aims.

Court Form C100 (Child Arrangements Order/Prohibited Steps Order/Specific Issue Order):
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-c100-application-under-the-children-act-1989-for-a-child-arrangements-prohibited-steps-specific-issue-section-8-order-or-to-vary-or-discharge

I can pass you the details of a company that provides Direct Access Barristers.

Thank you Kyle, you and everyone have hit the nail on the head, this is simply about what she wants to do for herself so has incited my little girl into these things, I really appreciate all of the comments and great advice.

I have a solicitor to handle this, meeting with her Monday but if you could please pass on the details of the Barristers that would be great.

KR

Sam

 

[proud_dad]

Thank you Kyle, you and everyone have hit the nail on the head, this is simply about what she wants to do for herself so has incited my little girl into these things, I really appreciate all of the comments and great advice.

I have a solicitor to handle this, meeting with her Monday but if you could please pass on the details of the Barristers that would be great.

KR

Sam

Solicitors in my opinion are not worth it - they are expensive for what they offer.

Seek advice from the best barrister that has direct experience of relocation cases and understands the family: law/court landscape, mentality, behaviour and they potentially have relationships with the judges who would preside over your case.

 

[Ash]

I've been keeping a list of barristers used by Dads that they were happy with if you want to PM me as well. It's not that long a list and depends what region you're in. I agree - you would be better to

a) Put in the application yourself (we can help with the wording)
b) Consult a direct access barrister who will act for you at the hearing - you can have a consultation first as well, but that will cost extra.

Barristers are not cheap, but overall it can cost less - Solicitors can run up a lot of bills and when it comes to international relocation, you need a Barrister - it's a specialised area.

You can send the copy of the application to the barrister along with a brief note about the situation, including the info you gave us about about what your daughter said, and show the barrister the text message. Then they have something to go on before the hearing.

It could get dealt with at the one hearing and you get the prohibited steps order. You will almost certainly get a temporary prohibited steps order pending a further hearing. Or your ex may counter apply for a specific issues order to request going abroad then it would be listed for a further hearing.

When you see your daughter though - best not to question her about things - if the Mother is coaching her/making her parrot stuff. It needs more of a gentle approach and just act normal and change the subject. All she needs when she's with you is the reassurance that everything is still normal at your house (subconsciously).

 

[Kyle]

Thank you Kyle, you and everyone have hit the nail on the head, this is simply about what she wants to do for herself so has incited my little girl into these things, I really appreciate all of the comments and great advice.

I have a solicitor to handle this, meeting with her Monday but if you could please pass on the details of the Barristers that would be great.

KR

Sam

My pleasure. I've PM'd you a link. Legal representation isn't cheap full stop. But a Direct Access Barrister charges a fixed fee for representation in court and consideration of court documents/statements etc. No hidden or incremental costs, like with a Solicitor who will be more than happy to compose statements for you and fill out forms etc and even act as intermediary, but charge you £200-£400 per hour for the privilege.

A Direct Access Barrister for my 1 hour FHDRA cost me £900. For my Final Hearing, £4800 for 2 days.

 

[3ML WMD]

Hello Everyone,

I have received an email from my ex wife stating that she has accepted a job abroad and wants my consent to take my daughter to live there with her, something I am certainly not going to agree with. I have PR, we separated in 2017 and divorced late 2018, my daughter will be 11 yrs old this coming August.

She will apply for a court order once I inform her I will not agree, what are the chances of me winning?

Since our split I have had a lot of contact with my daughter, overnight stays 6-10 nights a month and we share the holidays. I felt sick reading her email.

This is what she sent:

After much thought, research and deliberation we have decided to move to xxxxxx. There are many reasons for this, the main ones being -
* moving to be close to and have support from my family
* give X a better quality of life, including private schooling, activities, weather, health and well-being etc
* the cost of living here now is such that I cannot afford to live here, let alone find the rent for next month, this obviously has a knock on affect on X and she misses out on things weekly because of this
* I have been offered a job starting in x month which will change what I can offer X immensely, not only financially but also her quality of life as well as the quality of time I can spend with her.
These are just some of the reasons but it really will be a life changing experience for her.

I have obviously discussed this with her and she is very excited about it and can’t wait.

X's brother and sister will also be coming with us but will be returning regularly to the UK. This will mean that during the holidays, when she would like to come back and see you I can tie her flight in with one of them, alternatively you can visit her during the holidays when it suits us all.

Obviously I need your agreement to take her out of the UK and move to xxxxx and am hoping for X’s sake this can be a smooth transition.

Can you please let me know if you will sign a consent order allowing this so we can get the ball rolling or if we have to allow extra time to go down a different route.

If you have any questions, I’ll be happy to answer them.

Has anyone fought and won a case like this? Appreciate your help and comments before I contact a solicitor and send her a response.

Thank you Kyle, you and everyone have hit the nail on the head, this is simply about what she wants to do for herself so has incited my little girl into these things, I really appreciate all of the comments and great advice.

I have a solicitor to handle this, meeting with her Monday but if you could please pass on the details of the Barristers that would be great.

KR

Sam

Going through this right now but my daughter is much younger than yours (nearly 1). My daughters mother is an US citizen trying to remove our daughter to the US following the end of a very brief relationship. Her reasons are fear of redundancy, not having any support looking after my daughter, and not being able to afford rent in a 2 bed apartment despite earning over £150,000 a year and getting a £30,000 bonus in May 2022. I'm sure you can see where im going with this. It has absolutely nothing to do with the reasons stated above. Its just her way at getting back at me for our personal differences.

What initially started off as an application to get more time with my daughter turned into a relocation application once my childs mother failed to convince the courts I only deserved two supervised hours a week with my daughter.
To put things into further context , she wanted her RELCOATION application to be decided at a FHDRA. That is a one hour hearing. She wanted our childs entire future to be decided in one hour on a Tuesday afternoon. The judge was was almost confused by her application and went as far as removing herself from the case as she already had her answer and said she would rather have someone else take over for the final hearing.

Our final hearing is scheduled for October and I have no idea how things will go, but I got the feeling that unless it is 100% in the childs best interests to be separated from a parent the courts are very reluctant to grant these kind of applications.

My personal story is a long drawn out one but you have come to the right place for advice/help. Ash and the crew will help you along the way just as they have me and many others!

 

[mikeayo1891]

Going through this right now but my daughter is much younger than yours (nearly 1). My daughters mother is an US citizen trying to remove our daughter to the US following the end of a very brief relationship. Her reasons are fear of redundancy, not having any support looking after my daughter, and not being able to afford rent in a 2 bed apartment despite earning over £150,000 a year and getting a £30,000 bonus in May 2022. I'm sure you can see where im going with this. It has absolutely nothing to do with the reasons stated above. Its just her way at getting back at me for our personal differences.

What initially started off as an application to get more time with my daughter turned into a relocation application once my childs mother failed to convince the courts I only deserved two supervised hours a week with my daughter.
To put things into further context , she wanted her RELCOATION application to be decided at a FHDRA. That is a one hour hearing. She wanted our childs entire future to be decided in one hour on a Tuesday afternoon. The judge was was almost confused by her application and went as far as removing herself from the case as she already had her answer and said she would rather have someone else take over for the final hearing.

Our final hearing is scheduled for October and I have no idea how things will go, but I got the feeling that unless it is 100% in the childs best interests to be separated from a parent the courts are very reluctant to grant these kind of applications.

My personal story is a long drawn out one but you have come to the right place for advice/help. Ash and the crew will help you along the way just as they have me and many others!

@3ML WMD . Any update on your case. Were u able to win the relocation case?

 

[mikeayo1891]

@Big Sam Any update on your case. Were u able to win the relocation case?