Ihave a final hearing due in about 2 months time. I have just spoken with the CAFCASS officer in charge of or case and he has advised me that he has been given the go ahead from his superiors to apply for a 16.4 order due to ex telling him that im being very unreasonable with her regarding our kids. Im not, i just wont agree to her demands and cant get a straight answer to anything i propose. I have booked a holiday that has been authorised by the court but now shes trying to add more conditions to the holiday, like wanting hotel booking details and demanding video calls with both kids every day that were away and still wont confirm that i can have there passports 28 days before travelling etc. Apparently shes "never off the phone" to CAFCASS claiming im being unreasonable. He told me that hes very concerned for the children being in the middle of this conflict so has decided to apply for 16.4. He tells me that this means the children will have their own solicitor and he will act as a guardian for them. In theory this sounds like a good thing but is it? He also says that they can ask for psychology reports to be done which is a good thing for me as my ex is narcissistic, although undiagnosed. I have researched narcissistic personality disorder for a long time now as she accused me of having it and i wanted to know if i did. Everything i read was as if it had been written about her specifically so im very confident that this is what she has, everything just made sense after researching. If anyone has any experience or thoughts on this i would be grateful for any feedback. Did it help your case or hinder it? Thanks
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CAFCASS now applying for a 16.4
- Thread starter SJP
- Start date
I can here, definitively put your mind at ease.
A children's guardian is appointed under Rule 16.4 of the Family Procedure Rules. Appointing a guardian (usually through the National Youth Advocacy Service or NYAS) is - usually - in intractable cases. The guardian is there to represent *the children*. Practically - and very importantly - that means that the children will be legally (joined) the proceedings; all documents will now list them as respondents. They will then as you say have their own solicitor and their own barrister - they are separate people. As above, they represent the children and their position could be entirely different to yours. In reality, they will - drugs/DV/sexual abuse notwithstanding - take the view that the children should have relationships with both parents and you will usually find that your position is their position and Mother will remain entrenched in hers.
In my case both my barrister and the NYAS guardian were excellent. I can't speak for all guardians but they tend to be miles ahead of social workers/CAFCASS staff because they are much more qualified and experienced social workers. The guardian in my case was very plain speaking (and writing) and was not afraid of stating exactly how ludicrous mother's position was. The children's barrister was outstanding. He was - by a very long chalk- the best barrister who appeared in the case; my ex would typically have a different barrister for each hearing!
In short, having a guardian helped my case enormously. I wish she was still attached now I've had to return the matter to court!
Ask if you need any further help.
A children's guardian is appointed under Rule 16.4 of the Family Procedure Rules. Appointing a guardian (usually through the National Youth Advocacy Service or NYAS) is - usually - in intractable cases. The guardian is there to represent *the children*. Practically - and very importantly - that means that the children will be legally (joined) the proceedings; all documents will now list them as respondents. They will then as you say have their own solicitor and their own barrister - they are separate people. As above, they represent the children and their position could be entirely different to yours. In reality, they will - drugs/DV/sexual abuse notwithstanding - take the view that the children should have relationships with both parents and you will usually find that your position is their position and Mother will remain entrenched in hers.
In my case both my barrister and the NYAS guardian were excellent. I can't speak for all guardians but they tend to be miles ahead of social workers/CAFCASS staff because they are much more qualified and experienced social workers. The guardian in my case was very plain speaking (and writing) and was not afraid of stating exactly how ludicrous mother's position was. The children's barrister was outstanding. He was - by a very long chalk- the best barrister who appeared in the case; my ex would typically have a different barrister for each hearing!
In short, having a guardian helped my case enormously. I wish she was still attached now I've had to return the matter to court!
Ask if you need any further help.
Hi. In a way something like this was possibly needed. To reveal exactly how things are when the kids are with her. I think it would be better if it just went to a final hearing personally. The section 7 recommended one child lived with you and one child spends time with you and it's going to a final hearing. So your ex is using the manipulative ex's handbook to try and get that changed by badgering the Cafcass officer daily.
If the Cafcass officer decides to ask the court for that, and has had approval from his superiors, then it will happen. It means a Cafcass officer will be appointed to monitor how an order is being followed and how the kids are and then make further recommendations.
So yes I would see this as your ex trying to manipulate the Cafcass officer.
I would email the Cafcass officer as follows:
"Dear X
Thank you for letting me know you're apply for a 16.4 order regarding the children. Following our conversation, I do wish to express that I have not done anything other than try to follow the court order, but get bombarded with demands regularly. Mainly about the holiday the court ordered for the children to go on with me at May half term - I requested confirmation that the passports would be given to me on a certain date and this was refused unless I responded to all her requests. For the sake of keeping things amicable and so the passport handover goes smoothly, I have complied with all the requests - sending copies of booking confirmation detailing dates and flight times. I did decline to include the name of the other people travelling (my family members - as that is private to them). I have also provided an emergency contact number for the holiday. Despite all this there is still no agreement to hand the passports over 28 days before the holiday (it's necessary this early in case they are lost and need to be reapplied for).
The court ordered the holiday and it's simply a case of confirmation as to when the passports will be handed over.
I am sorry you have had so many phone calls. I have been receiving communications saying the Cafcass officer says I must do xyz.
I agree that this is not the kind of thing the children need stress and worry over, or to be caught in the middle of, and this has been a concern all along. And it is why I am trying to keep things amicable and really it should just be a case of complying with the court ordered arrangements and very little need for communication. I do feel it is obstructive behaviour but have been trying to be flexible over various changes requested, providing they work well for the children, who I do think need stability of arrangements and not too much chopping and changing.
If you feel the 16.4 is the right course of action and something that will help I am in favour of this also. You mentioned psychologists reports also - which I think would also be helpful - I assume that is for both parents.
Regards, you"
You can only agree to it as they've decided but at least put it into context.
If the Cafcass officer decides to ask the court for that, and has had approval from his superiors, then it will happen. It means a Cafcass officer will be appointed to monitor how an order is being followed and how the kids are and then make further recommendations.
So yes I would see this as your ex trying to manipulate the Cafcass officer.
I would email the Cafcass officer as follows:
"Dear X
Thank you for letting me know you're apply for a 16.4 order regarding the children. Following our conversation, I do wish to express that I have not done anything other than try to follow the court order, but get bombarded with demands regularly. Mainly about the holiday the court ordered for the children to go on with me at May half term - I requested confirmation that the passports would be given to me on a certain date and this was refused unless I responded to all her requests. For the sake of keeping things amicable and so the passport handover goes smoothly, I have complied with all the requests - sending copies of booking confirmation detailing dates and flight times. I did decline to include the name of the other people travelling (my family members - as that is private to them). I have also provided an emergency contact number for the holiday. Despite all this there is still no agreement to hand the passports over 28 days before the holiday (it's necessary this early in case they are lost and need to be reapplied for).
The court ordered the holiday and it's simply a case of confirmation as to when the passports will be handed over.
I am sorry you have had so many phone calls. I have been receiving communications saying the Cafcass officer says I must do xyz.
I agree that this is not the kind of thing the children need stress and worry over, or to be caught in the middle of, and this has been a concern all along. And it is why I am trying to keep things amicable and really it should just be a case of complying with the court ordered arrangements and very little need for communication. I do feel it is obstructive behaviour but have been trying to be flexible over various changes requested, providing they work well for the children, who I do think need stability of arrangements and not too much chopping and changing.
If you feel the 16.4 is the right course of action and something that will help I am in favour of this also. You mentioned psychologists reports also - which I think would also be helpful - I assume that is for both parents.
Regards, you"
You can only agree to it as they've decided but at least put it into context.
Omitted one thing, the psychologist.
This is something the guardian suggested in my case. It didn't go ahead because Mother folded. But, you should welcome it and stress about it. In the end, whilst there won't be a formal diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder or Narcissistic Personality Disorder, it will likely show her focus is not the children but denying your relationship with them, will evaluate her ability to change (zero!) and so on. It's a good thing.
And don't start telling people she's a narcissist as that will backfire - they'll see it as you being critical of the ex and tar you both with the same brush as regards who is causing the conflict. Let them work it out for themselves.
At least, while all this is going on, you have a stable interim order and all you need to do is keep to that and avoid letting her manipulate you. If she's complaining that you're being difficult then avoid communication as much as possible. Keep it to a one line "Agreed" or "Noted". Or "Attached details of holiday booking, please confirm passports available x date". She is trying to draw you in to interact and making a drama.
I wouldn't agree to any further changes to the schedule - just stick to the order. She will keep doing this otherwise. She's acting like a bossy wife and she's your ex.
At least, while all this is going on, you have a stable interim order and all you need to do is keep to that and avoid letting her manipulate you. If she's complaining that you're being difficult then avoid communication as much as possible. Keep it to a one line "Agreed" or "Noted". Or "Attached details of holiday booking, please confirm passports available x date". She is trying to draw you in to interact and making a drama.
I wouldn't agree to any further changes to the schedule - just stick to the order. She will keep doing this otherwise. She's acting like a bossy wife and she's your ex.
thank you. this is a very complex case and far from the norm. We have 2 kids together, daughter lives with me and son lives with her. This happened because when we split, our daughter refused to go back to her as she was scared to be with her mother without me being there, she has a drink problem and becomes very aggressive when drunk. I was always there to take the kids away from this when we were together but the ex brought a 3rd party into our home just days after we split up and this scared my daughter as he was also drinking with mother, and mother told daughetr 9 year old daughter that she had been sleeping with him but hadnt cheated, daughter knew that i would never be there to protect her anymore after this so refused to go back. Son was happy to go back to see his mother as he is quite a bit younger and didnt understand so i arranged for him to go back assuming it would only be for a few days til i saw him again. mother then refused to let son come back to see me saying that i could see son when i let her her see daughter and that he didnt want to see me which i knew was rubbish. i didnt see him for over 2 month until we got to court, the judge ordered in the interim that kids were to continue to live seperatley 1 with each parent until they could figure out what was going on. Cut to 7 months later and its been a nightmare. There is no compromise with her, its her way or no way. shes using our son to hurt me but is hurting him in the process. as it stands, daughter sees mother 1 day a week which is meant to be supervised but isnt being and i get our son every other weekend from school on friday til return to school monday unsupervised.
Thanks Ash, the funny thing is is that she fully agreed with s7 recomendations of kids living seperately and was happy with that. The thing that now worries me is that he said that it would be him that will be the guardian, this is the same guy who apparently told ex that he would sort out shared care for the kids, is this his way of doing that?
I asked him if he was going to wait until next hearing to apply for 16.4 but he said no, it was something that needs to be done straight away, and i agree with that, the last thing wee need is to have everything pushed back again if it can be avoided.
I asked about the psycholgy reports and who they were for and he confirmed that they should be done for both parents and kids which again im happy with. Ill send the email you suggest thank you
I absolutely agree. Iwould be more than happy to have us both. Since we split she has continued to try and cause issues but hopefully they will see its one sided, thank you
No, i absolutely wont do that, im not a psychologist so i cant make that diagnosis. The CAFCASS officer told me that she has no intention of stopping the holiday but thats not the impression im getting. I was told by her that she still has every right to stop this holiday as it would interfere with her court ordered time with the kids, which im sure she believes is true even though its already approved by the court. She has now blocked any contact between us which im happy about as i have no need for communication with her as youve said. She acted like this all through our relationship and always would if i allowed it, Shell alaways believe that she can call the shots even now were split up
Hi SJP,
Just a word from me re process.
The Final Hearing date will now be vacated and replaced with a Directions Hearing to enable the Court to Order the Guardian's appointment.
After that, expect the G to write an interim report with recommendations: one looks likely to be the appointment of an Expert Psychologist. These recommendations can hopefully be accepted into a Consent Order without a further Hearing date, simultaneous to this Order will be a timetable of delivery to the recommendations.
Re the Expert, each of you will be given 2/3 cv's to consider and agree on the appointment, then meetings with each party will be arranged before Report is sent to Court and shared to parties according to timetable.
It will then be for the G to write Final Report. IME it was 11 months from G appointment until FH. On that note: a FH date won't be a part of the initial timetable, and IME this side approached Court at month 7 of 11 to secure this, noting that the timetable of actions was intact.
HTH, SS.
Just a word from me re process.
The Final Hearing date will now be vacated and replaced with a Directions Hearing to enable the Court to Order the Guardian's appointment.
After that, expect the G to write an interim report with recommendations: one looks likely to be the appointment of an Expert Psychologist. These recommendations can hopefully be accepted into a Consent Order without a further Hearing date, simultaneous to this Order will be a timetable of delivery to the recommendations.
Re the Expert, each of you will be given 2/3 cv's to consider and agree on the appointment, then meetings with each party will be arranged before Report is sent to Court and shared to parties according to timetable.
It will then be for the G to write Final Report. IME it was 11 months from G appointment until FH. On that note: a FH date won't be a part of the initial timetable, and IME this side approached Court at month 7 of 11 to secure this, noting that the timetable of actions was intact.
HTH, SS.
thanks, thats what i was afraid of, taking a lot longer than anticipated. im assuming there will be more interviews etc with everyone. How did it affect your case if you dont mind me asking? would you say it helped?
Thats exactly what i thought. I really think hes just trying to get me to agree to him so he can close the case, that was the impression i got at court. It probably was because the judge said his reccomendation was not happening, he wanted the kids split up. Im hoping the kids solicitor will put forward the kids wishes and not just push for the cafcass reccomendations
The CAFCASS officer who did our s7 report has toold me that it will be him who is the guardian. Im not happy about that as hes changed his tune a few times now. He left my house and told me there was no way he could recomend the kids live with my ex after what my daughter told him, then his reccomendation was for the kids to live seperately, with them spending alternate weekends with each parent, he claimes shared care couldnt work as we cant communicate, we wouldnt need to if the days were set in stone, ex has told the kids that he is going to sort out shared care for us now, he has also been speaking to her regularly and giving advice yet will not return my calls or emails. I really dont trust him, Can i dissagree withthe appointed guardian and ask for a different one?