My Story & CAO Request for Majority Time

[Jumper85]

Hi all,

I’ve been on this forum for a while but I’ve never posted a ‘my story’ so following progress with my case I thought now was a time to do so.

Overview;

• Was married for 9yrs and left the family home later 2022 after my ex had suggested she was unhappy and later discovered she was unfaithful
• 2 children (8&5) and 50/50 was verbally agreed at this point
• The ex has suffered with mental health throughout her life and with alcohol and drugs over the past few years to the point rehab was considered
• Early this year, I notified the police and local authorities and school and took the children with me following concerns she was neglecting the kids and consuming far too much drugs and alcohol
• I raised a CAO in February requesting the children live with me until it was safe to return to 50/50
• April her counter CAO was raised and every abuse claim under the sun was raised and threats that these allegations would be pursued
• I was also asked to sign documents to say I would not drink alcohol 24hrs and during caring for the children, I refused
• Throughout the year the ex has proven her sobriety, sought help and so we agreed more time could be spent with the kids supervised
• We finally built back up to 50/50 in July/Aug
• The first hearing the abuse allegations were dismissed, it was confirmed the children should continue to live me and the ex said the children are not at risk in my care despite the allegations so the courts chose to not investigate further
• A section 7 report was requested however as the allegations that I was an alcoholic were made
• The courts also asked me whether I would promise not to drink 24hrs before caring for the children or during, I refused and said I would promise to always drink sensibly and I would be prepared to do tests to evidence my low consumption

We fast forward to now and I have my FDR next week. The section 7 report landed earlier this week which basically stated that they see no reason as to why the current arrangements should change therefore the existing arrangement of 50/50 shared care should continue and agreed it was on a lives with both arrangement.

I was disappointed with the outcome if I’m honest, I wanted the children to live with me, there are so many risks her side which are clearly evidenced even by doctors reports, statements, video footage, texts, you name it, I’ve got it. On the flip side the recommendation from CAFCASS secures me 50% with the children which is what I initially asked for anyway and the ex can’t make decisions without me as they also would live with me. I think it would also mean CMS couldn’t be claimed against me.

A couple of sticking points;

• CAFCASS did say the ex is still considering pursing the abuse allegations despite the original concerns being dismissed at the first hearing and there being no evidence, even her statements gave nothing to investigated given they were so general
• CAFCASS has also recommended both parents agree in the order to not consume drugs or alcohol 24hrs before or during the care of the children. This was a shock, I also think it’s a completely unreasonable expectation (I’m also on a 2,2,3 arrangement) as it basically means I might as well go completely sober myself!

So, I feel extremely lucky against most Dad’s to have that recommendation in front of me, I can’t deny that. I will have to see if the ex continues to push the allegations next week but any thoughts on next steps?

• Should I challenge the ‘no drinking’ expectation? Is that wholly unreasonable and how would it ever be policed anyway?
• Should I accept CAFCASS’s recommendation?
• Should I get a barrister to try and write up the order in draft for the FDR?
• Do I need to specify in that order that no CMS can be claimed? (I’m actually happy to write in the order that I will continue to pay school fees and after school childcare and hobbies directly as I’ve always paid these)

Any other thoughts to prep for next week?

Thanks for reading

 

[Resolute]

Hi Jumper85

Please can you clarify what hearing is coming up. I am not clear what you mean by FDR.

You write as though "lives with both parents" is a foregone conclusion. Cafcass recommendation is not the outcome. Cafcass advise, the court decides.

The alcohol thing seems like a diversion to me. It is a side argument that could end up taking focus away from arrangements for the children. Do you need to insist on the right to have a drink when they are in your care? If you do, it might weaken demands you make re. your ex's alcohol consumption.

CMS question is complicated. The easy way around it would be to get an order which gives slightly more time with you. Could you get an application in now stating kids live with you and leave your ex have the fight with them?

 

[Jumper85]

Hi Resolute,

Sorry, I’m getting mixed up with finances, my next hearing next week is a Dispute Resolution Appointment.

Yeah, I understand CAFCASS’s section 7 report is only a recommendation however I understand there the courts rarely deviate from their recommendations.

I completely agree about arguing about not consuming alcohol and would weaken my argument. I just find it a little bit of a bizarre recommendation and basically means Christmas, birthdays, holidays, etc for the next 10yrs I’m not going to be able to have a single drop of alcohol. Not even a glass of wine in the evening or with a meal out.

The ex is most definitely after CMS, she has been after the same thing, ie slightly more time with her. The good thing is CMS already have me on their records as the primary carer as when I took the children early this year, I applied for CMS payments and was successfully awarded them. Of course she never paid me a penny and owes me £100’s in back payments but regardless they have me on file as the children living with me and they also asked me to apply for the Child Benefit which I did but never heard anything back (although I earn over the threshold so financially it’s of no benefit).

 

[Resolute]

I do not think it at all unusual for the court to deviate from Cafcass recommendations. My experience is of much greater power being given to what is in front of the judge/magistrates on the day.

On the alcohol thing. If you give arguments against it, it might find its way into the order proper. If you are indifferent/agreeable, it could be a recital in an interim order and forgotten about in the final order. I had an undertaking not to harass in one of my interim orders. It was forgotten about for the final. Since then my ex and her solicitor regularly remind me of my undertaking and act as though it is still in place. I ignore them, the alternative would be arguing for my right to harass ex. The 24 hours thing is a non-starter, how can they know? The 8 year old might bring tales back if you are not a little discreet, but it can be worked around.

On the CMS stuff, you are already the receiving parent. Most of the time this comes up because a dad gets 50/50 and CMS still won't accept nothing is due. Should be the other way around for you. I'd leave CMS out of a Child Arrangement hearing.

Going with a draft order is a good idea, especially if you are the applicant. It can be shared just before the hearing and puts your brief in the driving seat at the end of the hearing.

 

[Ash]

It doesn't surprise me that Cafcass recommended 50/50 and said BOTH parents to refrain from alcohol etc. Because I have never yet heard of Cafcass EVER recommending children live with a Father. They are far too Mother indoctrinated for that. So if there's a problem with the Mother the best I think they will recommend is 50/50. The fact alcohol has been raised previously, they are dealing with it by treating both of you the same - ie neither of you should drink alcohol. I can see your point - but it's family court.

However 2-2-3 is a lot of chopping and changing - 2-2-5-5 would be better. Then you at least get four days when you can have the occasional drink.

My take on that is - maybe just don't bother to drink. It's easy for me to say as I've been tee total for years so it doesn't bother me. I stopped when a glass of wine became over the drink drive limit, depending on what size the glass was, and it was just too much hassle. Doesn't bother me at all - there are plenty of other things to drink socially - alcohol free stuff etc).

To any normal reasonable person, it would seem reasonable to have the occasional drink at Christmas - but this is family court, and Cafcass tend to gang up when a Mother is found to be failing (no doubt they would consider all your ex's issues are your fault). So if she is classed as having alcohol issues they are going to say - neither parent should drink.

I would just accept that and not fight it. I think it would be hard to argue for residency now at a final hearing if Cafcass have determined 50/50 is ok for the ex and she's safe enough. But chase up that child benefits application. If you're registered as getting the child benefits, then there should be no cms to pay with 50/50. It seems strange you haven't heard back and I wonder if your ex is claiming it?

I think unless you have a written recommendation from social services, that your ex should only have supervised time - then it will end up being 50/50. Because if the ex is considered ok to have unsupervised, then why not 50/50 - will be the argument.

However it is still a good order providing the schedule is clearly defined - especially holiday weeks/dates and when term ends and holidays start etc. ie which day (last day of term is probably best).

But it also means that if there are any major issues in future, you're in a good position for it to become sole "lives with" because the kids already live with you on a shared care basis.

 

[Jumper85]

Thanks for the comments.

So I’m back in court Thursday so I’ve little time really and perhaps after some of the comments I’m unclear on what to expect. It’s already been said that nothing more can be submitted to the court without explicit consent by the court so if the s7 report is the only new artefact how will it go?

I would have assumed it was the report is presented, the courts either agree/don’t agree based on their own interpretation and opinion and state what their order is and ask parties whether they agree or disagree? Is that right or am I completely missing something? Again, we’re both unrepresented.

What would happen if I didn’t take in a draft order?

 

[Ash]

If you didn't take in a draft order, the wording may end up ambiguous or insufficient. So I would suggest you do take in a draft order.

 

[Jumper85]

Does that need to be written up by a barrister or can a solicitor do it?

 

[Ash]

A solicitor can do it if you tell them exactly what you want in it. I drafted my own with everything I wanted covered and solicitor put it into correct terminology and layout etc. Also told me which bits couldn't be in the ordered part and had to be in recitals. One thing I wanted was for the wording for 50/50 to be from 9am to 9am. Eg 9am Monday to 9am Wednesday and 9am Wednesday to 9am Monday. ie it's your care time during the school day, not just from school so if child is sick or whatever and has to come home, they come to you, not to ex and then to you later. Also it's then clear in the order that it's a full 50/50. So CMS can't say - more time with Mum overall even though it's equal nights. I've heard that one before and they say that still makes her the parent with care in their eyes.

But - my solicitor refused to do that and said "we don't do that". I gave in and it was from school until the next morning instead of 9am to 9am and of course my ex took full advantage of that! Thankfully my son was hardly ever off sick.

Anyway I would try for the 9am to 9am. I can draft you the basics so everything's included if you then want to pass it to solicitor.

 

[Ash]

Although you may want a draft order that is just under 50/50 so you have fractionally more time. Regardless of the amount of time ordered for your ex, it can still be "lives with both parents" - ie to her benefit so it would still be equal shared care even if she only had 5 nights a fortnight. I can't see they are going to accept "spends time with" for ex, if Cafcass have recommended 50.50 (which would be lives with both).

 

[Jumper85]

Thanks Ash, that would be extremely helpful! I did think that most Dad’s on here would expect a certain standard wording to cover them. Anything you can do to help would be greatly appreciated and I’ll pick it up with a solicitor on Monday.

 

[Jumper85]

Disappointingly my solicitor has left the firm I was using and I’ve not had anyone else allocated to my case so time has just been wasted!

I’m in court on Thursday for a dispute resolution appointment where CAFCASS have been asked to present their section 7 report. No other artefacts are to be submitted and the recommendation from CAFCASS is 50/50 live with both parents.

Can someone help me understand as to what to expect at this hearing (1hr has been allocated) and what the possible outcomes maybe so I’m best prepped!

Thanks

 

[Ash]

The firm should provide you with someone else - even from another branch. So are you now going in with no solicitor?

 

[Jumper85]

I was always representing myself but using them only on an advice basis

 

[Dirge]

Can tell you my experience of first DRA. the nitty gritty lasted around 10 minutes.(Whole thing done in 30 minutes, including fixing IT issues). Legal advisor basically said is there agreement? No, ok , we'll schedule a final hearing then. Mine didn't involve section 7, maybe different for you, but I gather that if there had been agreement, the applicant's solicitor could draft up an order. That's why it's good to go in with a draft order, so you're part way there already if you need it. Both solicitors agree to wording and it gets rubber stamped by court. Don't know how it's done if neither side have a solicitor though. Make sure wording of order is water tight, no ambiguity or room for other party to mess you about.

 

[Ash]

Can tell you my experience of first DRA. the nitty gritty lasted around 10 minutes.(Whole thing done in 30 minutes, including fixing IT issues). Legal advisor basically said is there agreement? No, ok , we'll schedule a final hearing then. Mine didn't involve section 7, maybe different for you, but I gather that if there had been agreement, the applicant's solicitor could draft up an order. That's why it's good to go in with a draft order, so you're part way there already if you need it. Both solicitors agree to wording and it gets rubber stamped by court. Don't know how it's done if neither side have a solicitor though. Make sure wording of order is water tight, no ambiguity or room for other party to mess you about.

Very Good point! Take a draft order - I'm sure we can put something together.

 

[MagicJ]

@Jumper85 , how did it go today?

 

[Jumper85]

Hi guys,

So CAFCASS wasn’t present, no pre court meetings were held so no opportunity to discuss or share drafted order. We were even called into court 30mins earlier to my surprise!

We were asked whether we agree with the section 7 report, I said yes in principle and have drafted an order that aligns to those key recommendations whilst including an addition couple of points. The ex also agreed to the recommendations therefore the courts progressed with discussing the framework of the arrangement order and said they would draft as we were both unrepresented.

So in summary, we’ve verbally agreed a lives with both parents on a equal shared care basis of exactly 50/50 and we just need to sign the order to finalise it so it would seem I’m finally at the end of my journey, I can breath in the comfort of knowing I’ve got equal time of the children and equal responsibilities on key decisions in their lives so the ex can no longer just dictate or control.

Phew!

Thanks guys for all the interest and support. I’ll continue to stay around and support others where I can.

 

[Ash]

Glad to hear it's sorted

 

[winger]

Hi guys,

So CAFCASS wasn’t present, no pre court meetings were held so no opportunity to discuss or share drafted order. We were even called into court 30mins earlier to my surprise!

We were asked whether we agree with the section 7 report, I said yes in principle and have drafted an order that aligns to those key recommendations whilst including an addition couple of points. The ex also agreed to the recommendations therefore the courts progressed with discussing the framework of the arrangement order and said they would draft as we were both unrepresented.

So in summary, we’ve verbally agreed a lives with both parents on a equal shared care basis of exactly 50/50 and we just need to sign the order to finalise it so it would seem I’m finally at the end of my journey, I can breath in the comfort of knowing I’ve got equal time of the children and equal responsibilities on key decisions in their lives so the ex can no longer just dictate or control.

Phew!

Thanks guys for all the interest and support. I’ll continue to stay around and support others where I can.

Amazing news congratulations!