Drop off/pick up conflict

[Badger1234]

Hello all, looking for advice/opinions on a recent conflict. Happy to hear all opinions, this will likely be going to court so interested to hear if anyone has had similar experiences and their outcomes.

I have an interim order where I have the kids from Sunday morning until the following Sunday evening. Been in place for about 4 years. In that time I’ve done all the drop off/pick ups. On the Sunday evenings (when they go back to ex) my current partner has done about 50% of the drop offs due to my shift work. Since the order has been in place I’ve asked to share the burden multiple times but this has always been refused. For reference we effectively live within 3 miles of each other.

Fast forward to this year and my partner and I recently welcomed a new baby. I email my ex saying she’ll need to pick up the kids from now on at mine (on fortnightly Sunday evenings). I’ll continue to pick them up on Sunday mornings from hers.

She still refused. I left it till the Sunday evening and she texts me asking where they are, I tell her they’re ready to go and available for her to collect.

Refusing the whole time, even though I told her they’re ready any time she is to collect. Eventually took the kids back on Tuesday morning (so 1.5 days later). I’m not looking to withhold contact and returned them when I felt rested enough.

Does anyone think a judge would look unfavourably on me, when I’ve made it clear that there’s no obstruction and she’s free to collect?

Would the focus be on ex, who has no reason whatsoever to not collect (other than it’s what I’ve done for years)?

Or will we both get a bollocking from the judge?

TIA

 

[Ash]

I think the problem is, that unless an order specifically says who does drop offs and pickups, there has been a precedent of you doing them - so to change that would take it being ordered. But it depends what the interim order says. Does it say she will "make them available" on Sunday morning until the following Sunday evening? If so then you need to pick them up and drop them off and her only obligation is to make them available. So technically you could be in breach for not returning them. I don't think the Judge will give a bollocking exactly but it's expected that any changes need to be agreed by both so if she didn't agree then technically you could have breached the order - depending on the wording of the order.

Also do you mean it's basically week on week off - ie one Sunday to the following Sunday?

 

[Badger1234]

I think the problem is, that unless an order specifically says who does drop offs and pickups, there has been a precedent of you doing them - so to change that would take it being ordered. But it depends what the interim order says. Does it say she will "make them available" on Sunday morning until the following Sunday evening? If so then you need to pick them up and drop them off and her only obligation is to make them available. So technically you could be in breach for not returning them. I don't think the Judge will give a bollocking exactly but it's expected that any changes need to be agreed by both so if she didn't agree then technically you could have breached the order - depending on the wording of the order.

Also do you mean it's basically week on week off - ie one Sunday to the following Sunday?

Yes technically one week on/off or 50/50.

The wording is “kids shall have residential contact with the pursuer every second week from Sunday at xxxx until the following Sunday at xxxx”. (I’m wanting to try and keep some details non-specific hence kids and xxxx).

When this order was made, I asked the judge to clarify who does drop off/pick up but he refused as he did not want to get involved in those details and said as parents we should arrange it between us.

What can I do though if she just refuses all the time?

She also has picked up from my house before, although this hasn’t been on the ‘normal’ return day as specified in the order. For example there’s been multiple occasions where she’s asked me to keep the kids for longer, which I’ve agreed to (for example she wanted me to have them for 5 out of 6 weeks in the summer as she didn’t have enough leave at work). On some of those occasions as part of the agreement she had to come and pick them up from mine. I’ll need to go through and pull a list of those dates and how often they were.

 

[Peanut 21]

Eventually took the kids back on Tuesday morning

Did she contact you at all from the Sunday to when you dropped them off on the Tuesday?
If not, she can't be that bothered if you don't drop them back to her.

 

[Ash]

What can I do though if she just refuses all the time?

To deal with this correctly, in case you need to go back to court. It would be best to put something polite and formal in writing first and try and reach agreement. Eg

"Hi. As mentioned recently, I'd like us to arrange sharing collections and drop offs please, due to a change in circumstances. I propose that I collect from you on Sundays at x time, and you collect xxxxx from me the following Sundays at xxxx time. Please let me know your thoughts. Regards, xxxxx"

If she just says - no you've always done the pickups and dropoffs and I don't want to change that arrangement - then you don't have an agreement and the correct course of action then, would be either continue as before and try and keep things amicable and hope she will occasionally do the odd collection or drop off - or apply to court for a specific issues order to have it ordered that collections and drop offs are shared. But that could cause hostilities ongoing. I'm guessing you're in Scotland so assume there are specific issues orders, or something similar.

 

[Ash]

To be honest, I would probably keep doing the collections and drop offs - I always enjoyed the car journeys with my son. If the distance isn't too far. You also don't want the kids feeling in the middle or uncertain when they will be where. It's possible you might get a solicitors letter now saying you didn't follow the order to ensure the children were with their Mother at the correct times.

 

[Badger1234]

To be honest, I would probably keep doing the collections and drop offs - I always enjoyed the car journeys with my son. If the distance isn't too far. You also don't want the kids feeling in the middle or uncertain when they will be where. It's possible you might get a solicitors letter now saying you didn't follow the order to ensure the children were with their Mother at the correct times.

Yep I sent an email in advance similar to what you wrote. Flat refusal.

I’m going to court anyway to seek a specific issues order regarding something else so my main concern is whether I bring this up as well or if the judge will rule against me because of having the kids till Tuesday morning.

I don’t mind doing the drop off/pick ups. The issue is Sunday evenings when I could be working and it then falls on my partner. With a newborn especially I don’t think it’s fair to bundle them up into the car, drive, take them out of the car to walk them all to the door. All when my ex can do it with no hassle.

For me I think this has just built up over the years as everything she’s asked for that’s benefitted her I’ve helped with. Yet when it’s me that makes a request (and what I think is entirely reasonable to split the collection arrangements) she digs her heels in and won’t budge.

Interestingly I’ve already received a letter, but it doesn’t mention what you say. The letter was for me to agree to do all drop off/pick ups otherwise my ex would not follow the court order (ie withhold contact from me like she has before). There was no mention at all of the kids going back late. Which made me think that she’s been asked the question “why didn’t you just go and collect them?” by her solicitor and she can’t give an answer other than I’m supposed to do it. It’s what I think a judge would ask as well. Her solicitor even said the order is silent in terms of who should do the drop off/pick up.

 

[mva]

How old are kids?

 

[Ash]

I think I would be slightly concerned at the threat to withold the kids if you don't do the collections and drop offs. So as it stands at the moment you need to do them, but yes you could do a specific issues application to get them ordered - if the Judge finds in your favour. What is the other specific issue about?

 

[Badger1234]

How old are kids?

7 & 10.

It will only be a few more years and my eldest could walk to/from the houses. Not sure if it would be responsible for them to walk together though if my youngest is 10 but can see how they feel in a few years.

 

[Badger1234]

I think I would be slightly concerned at the threat to withold the kids if you don't do the collections and drop offs. So as it stands at the moment you need to do them, but yes you could do a specific issues application to get them ordered - if the Judge finds in your favour. What is the other specific issue about?

Well I believe it’s a threat she would follow through on so I agreed to it until the matter is resolved at court.

Other issue is around summer holiday, she’s refusing to let me take them to Europe. Her reasons are ludicrous but again she won’t budge so I have to go to court.

I’ve proposed mediation as well but through her solicitor she’s said no just go to court.

 

[Ash]

If you have a lives with both parents court order, and holiday weeks ordered, you shouldn't need her consent to go abroad. Although I know Scottish law is different. Doesn't the order say that a resident parent can take a child overseas for up to a month?

 

[Ash]

Another option perhaps - could you propose a slight variation to the order so you drop the kids directly at school on the Monday morning, rather than at the ex's on Sunday evening? Assuming you'd be free to do that.

 

[Badger1234]

If you have a lives with both parents court order, and holiday weeks ordered, you shouldn't need her consent to go abroad. Although I know Scottish law is different. Doesn't the order say that a resident parent can take a child overseas for up to a month?

We’ve only ever had an interim order and my ex decided to stop with the lies after the judge went through her and the case has been sisted ever since. The order itself is very short, and the important part is what I already mentioned, the Sunday pick up and drop off.

There’s nothing else really in the order. We don’t have anything about holidays. It’s just if it’s our week with the kids or not that dictates when I can think about holidays with them (unless longer holidays are arranged otherwise).

Regarding the Monday school drop off, I’ve thought about this as well but I see it being easily rebutted on 2 points: 1; if I’m able to make them available for school on the Monday morning why can I not make them available for the drop off on Sunday evening? 2; this only addresses roughly 2/3 of occasions. What will happen for the other 1/3?

Appreciate all the advice and opinions! It’s certainly giving me more to think about in advance of my solicitor meeting of what’s the best way forward

 

[Peanut 21]

I do totally understand your frustration at the ex not willing to budge and you doing all the leg work.
But, apart from her threat to withhold the children for silly reasons, it seems you are seeing the children a lot.
So could you not just grin and bear it in terms of the drop offs?
I understand your partner being annoyed as sometimes she'll have to take the baby along in the car when she does drop offs. But plenty of people have to do this sort of thing every day.
For the sake of a few more years (which fly by in hindsight) and your kids, could you be the bigger person and just say "sod it, I'll do all pick ups and drop offs"?
It keeps the kids out of the conflict and as they get older they'll see dad as the reasonable one who put them first.

 

[Ash]

I agree with Peanut. Sometimes it's easy to take for granted seeing the kids regularly, and for the sake of keeping their lives smooth .........Babies do have to go somewhere in the car sometimes and its for the sake of the kids rather than your ex. I would just embrace it as one of those little journeys once a week. The holiday is another matter. But normally you'd want to avoid court if you're getting plenty of time, because it can increase hostilities and that will affect the kids if the ex gets hostile.

It seems very unusual to have a kind of permanent interim order. Is there a final hearing listed at all? Are you sure it wasn't a final consent order that was reached at an interim hearing? But yes it could count against you not returning the kids as per the ordered times - possibly. You could argue she could have picked them up, but the argument against that would be it was a change to existing arrangements.

 

[Ash]

I do see your point as well though that you want to put the baby's needs first and not drag the baby and Mother out unnecessarily if they're having a difficult day or sleep deprived etc. I suppose the simple response would be that neither of you are available to do the return journey on Sunday nights and you therefore propose that either the Mother collects on Sunday nights, or you drop the children straight to school on Monday morning and seek agreement on this.

Of course what they will probably do is want to shave time off and say bring them back Sunday morning or Saturday night then. The other thing they might say is - organise someone else to do the return journey - grandparents eg. I think they will continue to see it as your responsibility so your ex is more deemed to be the main resident parent.