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Two mums / advice needed from dads.

The other thing is - she can't just expect to sit there and be a full time stay at home Mum! People have to work, to earn and pay their bills. Once you're no longer a couple, why should you not both work and share the care of the kids?

The situation where an ex wants to be a stay at home Mum and have you pay for everything, while they want the kids most of the time is not right.

The reason we have to go through these process to get an order is because there isn't a law that clearly states who children live with and for how much time, when parents separate. There should be - it protects children from being in the middle of these separating disagreements.

I don't think you'll get past her viewpoint that the older two kids are hers - and she;s "allowing you" to see them on her terms. Cafcass might get past that viewpoint though by disagreeing with her. Then she can argue with someone else lol!

Just bear in mind that Mediators jobs are to mediate - it's what they do - they think they can solve things so people don't need to go to court. It would be nice if that was the case but human nature is that, if something is not legally binding they will damn well do what they want and so agreements get nowhere because the other parent really doesn't want to do what they've agreed to.

In many cases when mediation starts, an ex just walks out part way through, or cancels at the last minute, or keeps changing the appointment causing weeks of delays. And in the background looks to change everything to how they want it.

If it was me I'd just get signed off at mediation on Monday and put the application in.

Before she gets the court papers you could perhaps say that you think it would be easier if you both can get some help on workign out what would be best for all the children so you've asked the court social workers to look at the situation and they will help both of you try and reach agreement. So you'll both be getting papers through the post soon and a phone call from cafcass who will try and find a solution you're both ok with.

That's a kind of vague way of saying "I've applied to court" without it sounding like an attack. And means it's not a shock when she gets the court papers with a copy of your application.

I get the impression you're shying away from telling the mediator that abuse means mediation isn't suitable? None of these situations are certain or predictable. But I think getting in first is a good start - get the ball rolling.

Alternatives:

You could accept being bulldozed into accepting her terms. See how things go for the next year and if it's not working, then apply to court. But finances will get tied up wiht that and by then she will claim she is the resident Mother in the former family home - and it's harder to change things. And she could still just up and move AT ANY POINT! New partner in another county etc.

Go for the prohibited steps order and propose a reasonable sensible schedule for the kids.
 
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Yes it's scary - what might she do? All I can say is - you get there in the end, get your order, and then it's sorted. Along the way there may be ups and downs, problems and stress and worry - or it may go smoothly.

What she's doing at the moment is the kind of thing two solicitors would do at negotiations before a court hearing - trying to batten down the other one. Solicitor 1: "You won't get that so might as well agree to what we're asking". Solicitor 2 "If you don't agree to this reasonable schedule we'll go for full residency". It's all about threats with lawyers. It's adversarial. And ultimately nobody agrees and the Judge decides, after recommendations from Cafcass.

She has also threatened to make allegations hasn't she? Do you have a record of that? In a text or email? You could surreptitiously record the odd conversation on your phone if she makes threats - but don't get caught or she'll really feel under threat.
 
As Resolute says - always ask for the maximum, and be prepared to get a bit less. They might settle on a compromise or you might get the 50/50 you ask for - because why not?

If you don't ask you don't get. If you only ask for 3/7 you could get less than that - so always ask for more than you want. Or rather the maximum you can ask for.

W is way over the top - "taking the kids away from her" would be you asking for sole residency! You're not - you're suggesting equal. shared. Not one parent being more important than the other to the kids.

Did you have a look at those schedules?

Yes, technically you could agree to 50/50 for the baby straight away - if she is prepared to do that. The other kids could help with the baby too. But only if you think she would actually care for the baby.

And - talk about ridiculous and trying to bully you - on the one hand she claims you've "stolen" one of her embryos. On the other hand, the child is biologically hers but she's rejecting the baby? The first comment is factually incorrect - you can't "steal" embryos and there'll be proper paperwork in place.
 
Thanks @Resolute and @Ash

I know now what I need to do . Tonight in discussions about travelling to see her dad and my family she said “ you need to be careful or il take them away all summer to my dads and rent a place “

So I’m absolutely going to push for the form to be signed off tomorrow and start to complete.

It’s my fault about the court thing as I said if we can’t agree we will need to go to court . I need to get better at this game don’t I ?

Then even though she said that and I knew it my head what I need to do she spent literally the next two hours following me around shouting , berating , then crying . I couldn’t stop her , I tried to walk away so many times and the baby was crying so I had to be in the house and she wouldn’t stop , I could see the kids faces and then at one point the older one said to me “ mama why does mummy always shout at you “ .

I feel so sick that I have to expose them to this for the next 6-12 months and the damage it will do and then I just started thinking. May as well just accept her 5/14 she’s gonna make my life hell , the kids life hell - I can’t do it .

She even very kindly has found me a house on right move . Worth half the value of this one and half the size , whilst suggesting she stay here despite the fact she can’t buy me out or prove affordability for the mortgage . In my head I was like stuff it I just need out I’m just gonna leave …

With regards to recording her she’s always checking my phone and is paranoid with me recording her , she definitely is trying to lure me into recording traps I think . Today she found “ fathers 4 justice “ on my bank statement and some legal fees ( really do need to get better at this game - I’ve changed my passcode now ).

Anyway then I read both your posts and I got some fire in my belly again. I think I’ve just been so beaten down over the years sometimes I just don’t know what I want or how to asset my authority to get it . Not that I have to prove myself to you or anyone but outside of this relationship I have thriving business I’ve established for 10 years ( fuming she’s entitled to half ) with over 30 staff , I think I’m a pretty good leader . I have a lovely family and loyal friends and at home I’m this person. Just goes to show how you never know what goes on in a relationship ay.

She was always controlling and mean at times but since the kids came she got so much worse and I became even more passive because I was so scared to lose them .

Anyway here we are . Like you said I need to stop focusing on what she’s saying and concentrate on my own plan.

First step tomorrow is the MIAM and getting signed off , I’m also meeting my business manager and I’m going to tell him the situation so we can start looking at if we can protect the business if we can etc.

I’m not going to lie I’m absolutely terrified about court papers landing on her doorstep and how that will play out at home but I 100 💯 feel that it is the right thing now.
 
Sounds like it is. I would get the C100 filled in asap. Schools break up in a couple of weeks. You need that prohibited steps application. It may be an idle threat, but you just don't know and that is the big risk. Once they've gone they've gone. You'd hardly ever see them.

If she's entitled to half the business, then you're entitled to half the house! Don't know what you're earning either, but if it was less than 50/50 with the children, then you'd be having to pay her 15% of your income in Child Maintenance (a bit less - reduced by the number of nights) for the first child, slightly less percentage for the second child, and she'd have to pay you CM for the baby if you're classed as the resident parent for the baby. But might hardly have to pay anything. It can get expensive.

Yes just take the form to the mediator, ask to be signed off and get your prohibited steps and child Arrangements application in.

Yes focus on your nice friends and family and other normal relationships, and your own merits.

Although mentioning court probably wasn't great - it could have it's plus points. It won't be a total shock to her if you do apply to court now. But please don't let anything else slip! Or you could find she's put her own application in on Monday, if she thinks you might be applying to court - then you could be on a backfoot kind of.

Yes change all your passwords. And your phone lock code. And any computer passwords and banking passwords in particular. You might even want to have a temporary redirection of your personal mail set up to go to another address (business address eg or a friend's house).
 
I think it was because you can tick for children to live with both parents in the printed version.
 
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Yep. It's frustrating, but the paper form has that option and the online one assumes the children live with "the Mother" - only gives the option for who the children live with.

This guide isn't finished but it explains on here

www.dadswithkids.co.uk

How to complete the C100 Form

We thought a guide to completing the form could be useful. This is the C100 form for applying for a Child Arrangements Order, Specific Issues Order or Prohibited Steps Order. C100 form on .Gov website If you scroll down the page you will see...
www.dadswithkids.co.uk www.dadswithkids.co.uk

Make sure she can't access your computer and don't leave any pages in the printer tray!
 
I can have a look at your draft for 5b wording at some point tomorrow if you've done it.
 
Hi @Ash

Sorry for late reply . It’s been a hell of a week.

So I went to the MIAM I tried to get signed off but the women wouldn’t and said she can send certificate to lawyer if I need but try get w to come blah blah , I came out feeling like I just have protected w like I’ve done for last 15 years, I did say stuff but not everything maybe I wasn’t forceful enough ? Anyway so then I didn’t know what to do but lawyer advised to tell W and see if she will go as looks like tried everything etc . So I told her she refused to go initially but now has obviously been advised so she’s going.

She’s refusing to budge on her proposed 5/14 and now is doing her best to attempt to stop as much access with older two in house as she says lawyer has told her to maintain “ the status quo” of how much time she spends with them meanwhile as she won’t spend anytime with them she is cutting her self away from the baby . My lawyer is writing a letter to her proposing a shared care timetable whilst we stlll live together but I know she will refuse as she says im just trying to prove I spend time with them now ? How do you prove you were cut off from them in past ? You can’t can you . It’s all he said / she said and the courts don’t like that I read?

Meanwhile living with her is hell . She goes from shouting , to crying , to having panic attacks, to bullying , to threatening . Like it’s an absolute war zone . I can see it affecting the kids , especially the oldest , she doesn’t care that they are around when she kicks off and then accuses me of aggression and attacks.

Today she rang me crying and lured me into a conversation about the past and why was I doing this etc etc and was antagonistic but she was so heartbroken upset I hung up and felt sorry for her and really questioned if I was doing right thing . Couple hours later she told me she recorded the whole conversation. It was just a trap .

I found out today my business is worth £200k ( just one valuation ) but that would mean she would be entitled to £100k which means I would have to give her my full equity in the house as I don’t have £100k cash in the business and that would mean I would literally have no money to buy another house whilst she walks away with £200k ( her share of equity plus half of valuation of my business )

I think that’s right ? Is it ? I’m so confused. Just feel like I’m losing everything I built up . It doesn’t matter if I get 50/50 with kids I will start again and I know I will fight but I am so so drained I feel like I just want to get away from her and knowing I have to stay ( possibly for up to 18 months ) the lawyer said .

I don’t even know what my next step is now ..

I don’t believe shel move 300 miles away now I think she’s prob realising she can sit prettier staying here …
 
Hi. Wondered how you were doing. I guessed the mediator might be difficult about signing you off and you might be trying mediation. All I'd say right now - is - don't run up loads of bills on Solcitors - save it for court costs. A one off letter is ok but there are all kinds of tactics - like her and her solicitor bombarding yours with letters and you getting charged for every letter read.

It sounds like a warzone despite mediation. When is the first session with W? Fingers crossed the mediator manages to do some good.

When you mentioned the phone call I was about to say - be careful, she could be recording you. And then you said she did. I wouldn't discuss anything on the phone now. Just don't take the call and send a text saying - busy - discuss later, or something.

You really do need to watch your back now. What was she trying to get said during the phone call? Trying to prove something about past agreements and embryos?

Yes there will be a lot of contradictory things from both of you that the court will have to try and work out what's what. Who is telling the truth etc. That's part of the process. At the end of the day though, they still like to look at what's best for the children.

As for your business valuation - I think it depends on whether your business is classed as marital assets or not and some of that depends when you started it and various other things. You might want to get legal advice on that from someone who knows about these things.

I read a case recently where a wife was trying to claim (millions) from her H's business interests and the Judge found against her. He had set up this company before he knew her and some of the funds had come from his Father I think. It was more complicated than that. But it came down to - at what point was it considered a permanent relationship - ie when did they start living together properly as a couple. She claimed it was an earlier date, to make sure she was entitled to his business interests, but the Judge found against that as they lived in different countries and only stayed the odd night together. He counted it from when they set up home I think.

The 50/50 share of assets works both ways. Has she had any income or pension before? Also your business is another matter. I think a court would see that it would affect your ability to earn if your business was seen as an "asset" and may discount it. They would look at the house equity as 50/50 definitely. I think you need some advice on this. Do you have an Accountant? They're quite good on legal business matters sometimes. Surprisingly - they do more than just accountancy.

The fact is - you're both still living in the same house and are/were a married couple - of course the court are going to see that you were involved with the kids regularly as a parent!

Are you making diary notes like mentioned before? Email them to yourself (IF you've changed your email password) and file them in a separate folder in your email,.

So make a diary note that W has told you she is now going to restrict you being involved with the children, in the home, because she is going to argue that you weren't really involved with them before.

That email is better as a diary note, than just writing it in a diary, because it's date and time stamped so authentic at the time of writng. Keep records as you go along. Get focused on that. All of this can be evidence and help your case.

Basically - keep focused on getting a Child Arrangements order before one of you moves out. It will take a lot longer if you're not doing the prohibited steps application.

Personally - I think you should try the mediation now. If it doesn't seem to be doing any good after the first session - ask to be signed off (but don't tell W). I am a bit concerned that she might apply to court first. You could actually still apply for an urgent prohibited steps order without the MIAM and say mediation is taking place but there is a risk she could move the children away. Get the ball rolling.

But if you want to just try the mediation first then good. There are some skilled mediators but it does sound like W won't budge.
 
You shouldn't have to stay up to 18 months. Yes it can take a year or more to go through the courts and get an order. That's why I still think you should do the prohibited steps application. You'd get a hearing within a week or two because it's urgent. The next hearing would not be long after. You could get through the process in 6 months then. There's no reason you can't have mediation AFTER applying to court/during the process. But don't delay or it will drag on and on.

Even if you think she might not move away now, you need to be strategic - you have a reason for an urgent application to make things happen quicker so I would absolutely do that.

And that mediator has to sign you off at any time. If you say to them you don't want mediation to progress. That is complete rubbish she can only send the sign off to your solicitor. Just tell her you don't have a solicitor any more. When the mediator deals with solicitors it's feedback from the mediation, if both sides are trying to reach a consent order.

If that's something you want to try, then both of you need a solicitor to draw up the order, which can be submitted to the court for sealing if agreed - but it can waste a lot of time and money if at the last minute she just changes her mind or won't agree the order wording.
 
Hi Clocky,

Ash knows much more about these processes than me, I'll leave him to advise from here. I am only 18 months down the road from where you are, the techniques your Ex is using are just so familiar to me.

My last word:

It looks to me like you and your ex are now adversaries rather than companions. Difficult though it is, I think it would help you to stop trying to give her the benefit of the doubt.

My fingers are crossed for you.

Res.
 
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I'll just add that courts KNOW that separating couples are in conflict - it's why people get divorced. Agree with Resolute. You need to start seeing yourself as a separate entity, not part of a couple. Detach from her - difficult when in the same house, but even if you only spend half an hour a day, meditating or whatever helps you detach mentally and emotionally from her, so you feel grounded, certain and confident. All the stuff you describe from W is designed to mess with your head, scramble your brain and confuse you mentally and emotionally - and distract you from being focused and achieving an end result. You're not her counsellor, you're not her partner trying to help her with a separate issue. You're a parent trying to sort a future for the kids. She should get one though.

I know I keep repeating it - but you need to try and keep focused. If work helps, or long walks or whatever - keep your focus.

Your focus is - you need a Child Arrangements order for the kids. When you have that you can sort everything else.

As part of that, yes, it does help if you can propose a plan in your application - for the Child Arrangements order to start from the point of separation - the plan being who will live where. What that comes down to is - who remains in the house. You can either be tough and say you wish to remain in the house with the kids, that your stbx is intending to move 300 miles away and you seek a 50/50 order whereby the kids live with you in term time and stay with her in holidays (this is more leverage than anything as at the end of the day the 50/50 order will work whoever lives where). Or you can say - you intend to move out to a rented house once the CAO is in place. That can change if necessary.

But the important thing is that you get this CAO asap. No you don't want it dragging out for 18 months. And a word of caution, when we're desperate in these situations, solicitors can milk us. They listen, they sympathise, they depress us with their negativity - and they charge for every minute of that. And the end result is not affected by any of this.

The court process is what achieves the order - not the solicitor. In fact many Dads do a lot better without one, putting things in their own words. As I've said before, save your money for a barrister for hearings. Solicitors will give advice and 5 different ones will give different advice. And if their advice is wrong and causes you hardship - they are not accountable and still get paid. As you can tell, my experiences of solicitors is that I don't recommend them often except for initial free advice.

The important thing is - get an application into court.

Now at the moment you've held off on that to do mediation. Fine. Accept that this will just delay things, so still keep focused and still get that C100 completed and ready to go instantly mediation fails. You have to have two heads on here. 1) You are showing an attempt at mediation 2) in the background you are focused on getting a court order. It might seem a bit hostile but it's not. That court order is for the kids - to protect them. It resolves their situation legally for the future. You need this situation legalised, and unfortunately court is the ONLY way to do that. To legalise the situation for the kids.

It CAN be done by a consent order without actually going to court - but it is still the court, and a Judge, that makes the order. If solicitors agree an order and send it to court for sealing. Even then, if a Judge things it's not quite right they can call a hearing.

So it seems like the focus at the moment is

1) You're going ahead with mediation. See what happens and how effective the mediator is. Bear in mind the mediator wants to achieve agreement and they're not usually intuitive enough to spot a manipulator. Mediation only really works when both parents are supportive of the kids relationships with the other parent.
2) The mediator might take sides - they are human. They might ask you to see her point of view and let her stay in the home with the kids and accept regular time. Mediation can be humiliating and make you feel guilty and pressured. All the mediator wants to achieve is agreement - they don't think about the future outcome for you. There are some good mediators. There are also some very very bad ones.
3) You don't have to do mediation. You can go to the first session, sit there, say very little, listen more. Then email the mediator straight afterwards, say you no longer have a solicitor and want signing off.
4) I am quite shocked this mediator refused to sign you off. Maybe he/she persuaded you to try mediation. But to say they can't sign you off and have to send it to a solicitor is untrue. You can go to another mediator for another MIAM and just say at the outset - I want signing off so I can apply to court.

I get that you would like to try and get this resolved without court. You've said how awful the atmosphere is at home. My own feeling is - the longer things drag on, the worse that atmosphere will be and the sooner you get an application in, the sooner things will settle down. Because then you'll both be focused on the court process.

It's an incredibly tough situation you're in and it concerns me that you may become worn down emotionally to the point you just give up. That is your stbx's tactic probably. You need to protect yourself and have some distance - hence time to escape mentally and emotionally. Set a new routine maybe - of going out once a day - take the baby for a walk or something. Go to visit a friend for tea. Keep to that routine. Decide to only discuss things with W for a set period of time once a day. Eg 15 minutes at about the same time of day. Then say - any further discussion can wait till tomorrow you need to do xyz. Tell her life needs to continue.

Who is doing the cooking? Are you living in separate parts of the house? I am sure you are desperate to separate and get out of this situation. The sooner something is agreed re the kids, the sooner that can happen.

Tbh I am not sure mediation IS the best route before separation - it perhaps works better for parents who are already separated. But don't move out without a court order for the kids. Or you could lose everything.

So ultimately - if it's getting too much at home - get a court application in and get the process rolling so separation can happen.

The scenario of mediator dealing with solicitors sounds like a long, drawn out, expensive fiasco. W's solicitor is clearly playing the adversarial role anyway and not in any shape or form looking for conciliation!

Have you got any support outside of this? A friend or work colleague?

At the moment W seems to be creating immense pressure for you to just move out and take the baby. That is an option - but if you do that you might not see the other two kids for a very long time. Unless you put the urgent prohibited steps application in at the same time.
 
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@Resolute and @Ash

Thank you both good advice

Ash you are so thoughtful about the situation your advice is helping me so much.

I am trying to be as separate as possible , I go out all day with the baby and then get in help with other two and go to bed . Just ordered an air bed so I can get out of the bedroom and il just stay in with baby . She has actually suggested we have one night away from home per week each so we have two nights away from each other so starting this next week. Not sure if her solicitor suggested this but I’m grateful to be honest and a night of 8 hours sleep.

Problem is when I’m in the house she follows me around constantly attacking , questioning , guilt tripping , crying , shouting . You name it. This morning she’s told me she’s been to doctors because it’s abusive she donated her embroyo to me and now I’m taking her young baby away from her.

She’s going to her families this weekend and taking the older two , so 300 miles option . I’m taking the baby to see my mum and dad and going to tell them as haven’t yet as didn’t want them to worry so I think once I have that support il feel better . I’m going to start the C100 and prohibited steps order over the weekend. I agree with resolute and yourself to stop giving her the benefit of the doubt.

Just few questions on the c100 , you said to complete hard copy but then it’s harder to edit isn’t it ? How do you show solicitor or could you have look to see if I’m writing the right thing ?



Thanks for the suggestions about the solicitor and barrister situation. I was thinking just get one letter to try show I’ve offered timetable over summer to equally manage the kids . Shes currently refusing to let me use her car ( the family car ) which has 3 car seats in but won’t let me put a car seat in front of mine as argues it’s not safe etc so it’s impossible for me to take all 3 out. Surely that’s not in best interests of the kids ?

I think you are right I feel so battered down and guilty and worries about the kids when I’m around her I feel like giving up or giving her what she wants . Speaking to you on here is really helpful and I will try to get out and do other things than think just about this battle .

Thank you
 
I can check over the C100 - I've done quite a few - it's better if it's in your own words. Solicitors just put vague minimal things like "Father wants time with children (or parent in your case!)".

That does sound a bit alarming if she's taking the kids to stay with her family for the week-end. Honestly anything can happen. So many ex's have done a moonlight flit. Hopefully it's not that, but yes do get the prohibited steps application in. You'll need to get signed off mediation though - unless you're doing it urgently without the MIAM and just say you've had a MIAM and mediation had started but ......urgent matter.

The hard copy is easy to edit as you still complete it on computer and can amend and save as you go along and only print it out when you're happy with it. It's easier to just put "please see attached sheet" in 5b and type that in Word - less than one side of A4 - print that out and put it in behind the page with 5b on. You put your name at the top of the separate sheet plus what the application is at the top too (eg prohibited steps and Child Arrangements application). I also recommend copying the "statement of truth" wording from the end of the form, onto the bottom of the separate sheet, and signing it and dating it. Staple the whole lot together when printed out (after doing the other three copies). You might need a good stapler - it's a bit thick for a standard one.

I'd prioritise - although realise the summer holidays are starting soon. But be aware that that is when the most parents whisk their kids away - over the summer and have them signed up in a new school for September. First you know is when they don't come back in September. Not sure if you saw another post on here from a Dad who put in a prohibited steps order in the nick of time and it prevented his ex taking the kids away - he'd probably never have seen them again. That was abroad but 300 miles is just as bad.

1) Get the prohibited steps application in (with or without the MIAM sign off)
2) Yes get the solicitor to write a letter proposing summer holiday dates but do the prohibited steps application first/at the same time.

If you don't have the MIAM sign off, do you have anything to show you've been for the MIAM? The receipt for the first session? An email confirming you've had a session and she's writing to W? If so you could stick that in with the application to prove you've had a MIAM. That's fine for an urgent application but wouldn't be enough for a standard one. If you're lucky you'll get a hearing date in a week or so. That should produce a temporary prohibited steps order - meaning she can't move the children away until things have been resolved re Child Arrangements. You'd then get a further hearing which could be anything from 3 to 6 weeks and Cafcass calls in the meantime.

Courts are also very busy over the summer holidays so if you can get it in on Monday that would be good.
 
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I've done all my C100 applications (about three) and had positive results from them. Surprising how words can be persuasive and set you up in the right way.
 
Hi ash

I have emails confirming the MIAM but not that I went if that makes sense? I was thinking of just going for an urgent application as summer is coming and she threatened to take the older two for 5 weeks anyway … ??

I’m going to start the C100 tomorrow at my families so if you could check over what I’ve completed that would be great thank you so much .
 
No problem - I think that is the right thing to do. Mediation isn't going to happen if she goes away. If you get it in on Monday you should get a quick hearing. Ask for a 48 hour hearing. It might take more than 48 hours but should still be quick. If W has already gone away that supports the application even more! If she says she can't get there because she's 300 miles away! You'd get the temporary order without her even attending then.

Suggest you email the mediator and say "I would like to be signed off mediation please as I now need to put in an urgent application on Monday. Please can you confirm how quickly the sign off form can be sent to me?"

Kind of fishing for a reply? Don't suppose the mediator works Saturdays but you never know. What you'd have then is

a) An email showing you had an appointment for a MIAM
b) An email from you to that mediator asking to be signed off (which makes it clear you've been for the MIAM).

So even if they don't reply before you put in your application, you can attach the print outs of those two emails, and say in your application that you've had a MIAM and started mediation, but it has not progressed and the matter became urgent.

Once the court process starts, is very likely that Cafcass will "recommend the parties have mediation" between hearings. So it's still possible to have it - but don't let it hold up getting things in place so it doesn't drag on and cause anxiety.

Also as you said - the stress is affecting the children. So the longer that goes on the more it gets stressful. Cafcass have a guide for children actually that explains to them that the court process is to help their parents agree arrangements for them. I seem to remember it says that most children are relieved to know someone is involved and helping to sort things out, as they know everything is messy and needs sorting out.
 
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