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Two mums / advice needed from dads.

Edit - I agree with Resolute about "no insight". My Barrister said that about my ex. The lack of empathy is the worst thing. You can't make or persuade them to have empathy. They only see themselves as important and children are an extension of themselves, not individuals with their own thoughts or feelings.

Yes Amber Heard is probably a good example! Deluded also is part of it. Sometimes they actually believe their own propaganda (lack of insight again) - because they have to believe they are THE only and most important person in any situation. And always right. To keep up that kind of thing means being a compulsive liar.
 
Thanks both .

Ash thanks for sharing your story , sorry you’ve had such a crap time too , at least you didn’t waste years of your life on the women - thankfully !
Everything you say rings true , especially the children as extension of herself . She went through this with her own mother who then abandoned her when she grew up into a women that wouldn’t be controlled and now history is repeating , it’s so sad . I often worry about the scapegoat thing too , there always has to be something bad doesn’t there ? A punch bag . I worry if I’m not here it will be one of the kids ….

So today she’s gone off and had phone call with a lawyer definitely as she come back in after a long call and said “ it’s not about he said / she said it’s about putting the kids needs first “

First time she’s ever said that , she normally is all like “ I do everything , I deserve more time , no one is taking my kids from me “
Etc etc

She also came at me with “
Shared residence isn’t equal time “ and I spend 90 % of time with the kids so therefore you haven’t got a chance of 60/40 or 50/50.

So at least I know she’s going to play that card but surely to god that is the most ridiculous argument because :

1 . I worked full time and away few days a week when the older two were little she was primary carer but I was working my back off to buy us a nice house , surely someone has to work full time ?! She works part time but had 16 months fully off with the first .

2. I had a baby so now I’m often with baby up in night , feeding etc I spend as much time as I can with the older two around baby and my business . I obviously encourage w to swap up days and spend time with baby and me with older two but she is reluctant and I think it’s because she doesn’t see the baby as “ fully an extension of her so can’t make sense of him in her head, and of course won’t forgoe control of the older two .

3. She is controlling as anything with the older two so of course she spends all her time with them . I can’t get in there . That’s half the reason I want to leave . W reckons just because I take big one to dance and karate every other week she lets me have time.


Sorry for that rant I’m justifying myself aren’t I ?!!

Anyway so as it stands I’ve booked miam with mediator on Monday but I’ve not yet had moment to fill in the c100, do I need to take it in? Mediator said after my appointment she will contact W to see her .

One thing I wanted to ask is like what do I say to the mediator?? Like do I tell her the whole truth of it or does that look to much or too much about me and not a solution ? Also nervous of what W will say .

Final convo with wife tonight was her telling me “ I’m excited for this battle , in fact I’m absolutely jubilant “ then cackled like a witch and walked off .
 
said “ it’s not about he said / she said it’s about putting the kids needs first “
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Based on what I know about this type of personality, this comment won't mean she will put the kids needs first - it will mean she has worked out how to play the system ............by using the argument of making out she is putting the kids needs first. One thing with narcissists, and particularly my ex, WHATEVER info they have they twist it to use for their benefit.

However what she said later is rubbish. Just because she spends more time with the kids currently doesn't make you any lesser a parent. The standard a court would order for a Dad (and many Dads are the main breadwinner and not the stay at home parent) would be every other week-end, one midweek overnight and half the school holidays. This would either be 4 nights out of 14 or 5 nights out of 14 (if the week-end includes the Sunday night). You can have shared care/lives with both parents with 5 nights a fortnight (sometimes with 4 but it's usually at least 5). Ie about a third of the time overall.

Relationships are more about quality than quantity .........as you know.

If you have your MIAM on Monday, and the mediator is then going invite W, then you don't need to take the form to ask to be signed off. Because you're going ahead with mediation rather than being signed off right now.

Don't worry about what to tell the mediator. W won't hear about that. Just tell her what the issues are and what you want to achieve and why. They're there to listen, understand and advise. The MIAM bit is information and assessment. So they give you information about how mediation can help and they assess whether it's suitable for mediation. They almost always say it's suitable for mediation if both want to try it. But - if you tell her you have been on the receiving end of domestic abuse and you don't think mediation is appropriate she might agree with you and say you're exempt (abusers can try and manipulate the mediation process so you don't want to be saying too much or giving away too much info when you're both having the the mediation).

So then it's back to the two angles again.

1) Get exemption from mediation and do an urgent or ex parte application.
2) Do a straight application having tried mediation first.

However if you tell the mediator she's threatened to move 300 miles away and you're thinking of doing an urgent prohibited steps application then they might say - get that application in. Some aren't very good though and are just hung up on mediating about everything and not looking out for you legally. So there are still decisions to make.

Your W is trying to intimidate you into feeling underconfident by the cackling laugh. To make you think she knows she will be classed as the only parent etc etc.

There have been cases where a parent turned out not to be a biological parent (a Dad) and was given residency because he had brought the child up as his own, believing he was the biological parent. He was given residency because the Mother just stopped the child seeing him (after years of separated parenting) and told him he wasn't the real Dad. DNA proved that to be true. The Mother thought that meant she could get rid of the Dad (she'd met a new man) - the court decided otherwise - that he was the Dad despite not being the biological Dad.

One thing that is helpful in court applications is not so much how much time you spend with them day to day now, but how involved you were in sharing the care after birth. So for example some Dads will explain they were "hands on" and shared nappy changing, feeding and getting up in the night. That's the kind of thing the courts see as having developed a bond from early life.

To be honest I think mediation doesn't sound like it's a goer. W has set ideas and an agenda. Her idea of whats best for the children is on her own terms. The courts will think otherwise.

If you're worried about W's reaction to you going on Monday on your own, just tell her you both have to have separate MIAM's first - for information and financial calculations - and then it's joint mediation, and you're going for yours on Monday.

It's a stressful time and you're caught up mentally with W being present so much it seems, but have you thought about what you're going to do? Do you still think it's urgent to get a prohibited steps order? (Her threat of moving 300 miles away?). That really determines whether or not you need to get an urgent application in. Which to me sounds like it should happen (apart from the fact it will speed up the process).

You can still ask the mediator to sign you off after you get home and think about it. But be careful. Once W knows you've been asked to be signed off she will know you're intending to apply to court. So I'd start filling in the application asap so it's ready if you need it.

If W has said she is looking forward to the fight, then mediation doesn't sound like a goer does it? Personally I'd ask to get signed off on Monday, get your application in and she can argue with cafcass instead of with you.

If you're going the other route - urgent ex parte due to abuse etc - you don't even need to go to mediation (although it would help to have had a MIAM and been signed off).

It's a shame W knows you have an appointment already. Could you perhaps lie and say the mediator has had to postpone? So she doesn't know you've had a MIAM. And just get the MIAM and sign off? Or are you hoping to actually try the mediation? Depends what you decide.
 
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There’s a big part of me that’s like how would she really go 300 miles away ? As much as she’s total crazy she loves the baby and surely to god she couldn’t be away from him ? Having said if she feels threatened? Who knows . Also would she try take the baby ? Surely not , I’m with him 24/7 doing all night feeds etc …

That worries me about the early life as baby thing because when our first one was born I took an opportunity which involved working away a lot so she constantly claims I was on my own with her all the time and then the second one two when she was born. She uses this constantly despite the fact we wouldn’t have our family home if I had not done that .


. But it was an opportunity that enabled me to get my own business 5 minutes from the family home with completely flexible working hours . I have been at home since lockdown and only now work 3 days a week.

My lawyer said once every other weekend and one night in week is mimimum dads and I understand it’s quality completely but I really want to have more equal care and for the most part I do not want the baby to be away from siblings for that period of time . I honestly feel sick that she does and I’m really hoping that cafcass agree.

She’s says I’m not maternal because what mother would want to do equal care with their partner and break up when baby was so young, and I really don’t want to be away from him but what is my choice ? Staying in this awful relationship?! Also why does she want to see him so little , biologically he’s hers even looks more like her than the older two .

She argues that 3 on our own is Too much of cope with , of course then she says she would manage 3 but I wouldn’t.

I personally think doing 5/2 swapping kids will be exhausting anyway because we will basically both be single parent 7 days a week with no time off . When I point that out she is like “ look at you thinking of yourself as ever “.

She doesn’t know I’m going on Monday I just said I had booked it so I could just go and not tell her but then doesn’t the mediator then invite her ??

Thanks again for the support. It’s strange I thought this process would be terrifying and it is but it is also a relief because I feel like I’m finally talking control , and like she knows she’s got to be careful and can’t just abuse and threaten now because it’s in a legal process . I can even text her and be like “ ok if I take older two out tomorrow “ etc and if she says no I can keep it .

Even if the court awards the minimum time with the older two then the thought of being able to do exactly what I want , ie putting them in the car and taking them to see my mum and dad on my own without her controlling , hating ways honestly just feels like a dream .
 
It does help to share it with others in a similar situation and feel there is "some" progress in discussions with W - but I wouldn't exactly call it in a legal situation yet. Because possession is 9/10ths of the law (without a court order). If she suddenly decided to chuck you out and withold the kids, then yes you have rights (and so do the kids), but it could take a few months before getting to see them again, and then probably only in a contact centre once a week for another few months. Or she could move 300 miles away. Hopefully it won't come to that, but this is what many separated Dads face all the time. Relationship breakdowns, however amicable, are high conflict situations usually.

So to be able to relax legally you need a court order - whatever the schedule is. What do you think would happen if you did nothing? Ie if you just carried on, didn't talk about separating or childcare after separation? Obviously the relationship would still be bad, but do you think she would accept carrying on or would she create situations and pick fights to try and force you to move out? The latter is what commonly happens if the other person wants the break up/separation.

Obviously you couldn't do that for too long as already know the relationship isn't right long term. Some people do stay and put up with it, so they can see their kids every day. But it's still a risky strategy as, as soon as the other person decides they want out/meets someone else, they can pull the rug.

Right - so you have your MIAM on Monday and she doesn't know about it.

You then have two or three options:

1) Agree to try mediation - the mediator will write to W and invite her to attend an appointment on x day.
2) Tell the mediator you're in an abusive relationship, there has been DA and you want signing off to make an urgent application (exemption from mediation).
3) Just tell the mediator you want signing off to make an urgent application, not mentioning DA (they will probably pressurise you a lot to try the mediation and get quite firm even - so you need to decide from the start if you want signing off and whether you'll mention the DA or not.

Assuming you get signed off. This will either be the mediator signing the form on the day, or the mediator saying she will send it to you (could take a couple of weeks.

The first is better. A lot can happen or go wrong in two weeks. Anyway assuming you're signed off:

You're then in a position to put a court application in - either straight away, or at any time in the next 3 months. The MIAM lasts for 3 months.

Assuming you put a court application in early next week:

Nothing will happen for a couple of weeks. Both of you will then receive court papers with information - a date for a gatekeeping hearing usually (neither parent attends - it's for Cafcass and a legal adviser to determine what the next stage is - either straight to a first hearing or whether any further investigations are needed). Between receiving the papers and the hearing date you will both get a letter or email from Cafcass - two usually - one to confirm ID, the second with a telephone appointment time. Cafcass will do a telephone interview with each of you to see what's what. They then write a report and you both get a copy before the hearing - so you can see what they thought about it all and what they recommend next. If there are no real allegations on either side they will usually recommend both parents go on a SPIP course (separated parenting course), and a first hearing is listed and possibly recommend that mediation is ordered (you'd need to go for at least one then). If one party makes allegations they will wait to see what the outcome of the gatekeeping hearing is before further recommendations (eg a section 7 report or a fact finding hearing before first hearing). A fact finding hearing is to determine whether any allegations are true or not.

As you can see, if either of you makes allegations, there are more delays and it gets more complicated. However if only W makes allegations and they are seen as a bit unreliable they may just be dismissed/ignored and it determined that there are no welfare issues.

The sure fire way NOT to be suspected of being the abuser, if W makes allegations, with possible fact find hearings and only seeing the kids in a contact centre, is to make your own (true) ones. Relating to feeling unsafe, needing an NMO and history of abuse. It could still go to a fact finding hearing however, where you'd need to provide evidence of any abuse. It's determined on "probability" as well - ie whether the accuser is deemed to be tellign the truth.

If, at a fact find, it is determined there are no welfare issues and allegations are dismissed - then it goes to a final hearing, Cafcass are no longer involved usually, and it's a straight hearing with neither party being seen as a risk to the children. That is the point when you make a full statement etc and argue for the schedule in the order that you want and that hearing determines what will be in the order.

So these are the processes. It's fairly straightforward if neither of you makes any allegations. And you can get an interim order at the first hearing (usually within a few weeks to 3 months) if necessary. It could be 6 to 9 months before a final order is made.

The parent who is resisting the 50/50 or whatever, that's applied for, has more incentive to make allegations to try and prevent you getting your order, to delay things and to throw spanners in the works. They can be disruptive over child arrangements between getting the court papers and the first hearing. Sometimes it's the opposite - they behave perfectly as if to show the court - look there is no need for any order - everything is going fine as it is, and stick to wanting less time. But they fear the court might find in your favour. That is the incentive to then try and fight dirty and make allegations.

So yes there can be a bit of an explosion when W receives the court papers, sees what you've applied for, panics. She has to respond to the application on another form and can also put down what she wants in an order. And at that stage she could make allegations as well.

So it's a bit of a rollercoaster until you get to the final hearing. Because it's an adversarial process and allegations can be used to disrupt things. In most cases, these are dealt with and dismissed and it eventually goes to a final hearing and a good order.


That's the process once an application is submitted.

If you sit on it for now and nothing much happens and she still wants to split up, she may start threatening to move away again and make like hell.

If you try mediation, it will probably delay the court application process as it's unlikely to lead to a consent order for 60/40. However mediation might help - there's a chance I guess. One thing is clear from what W (and to some extent you as well) is/are saying, is neither of you can imagine a separated child schedule while you're in the middle of the current situation - ie before separation.
 
Most people get into routines - all the kids there, all the kids away and get used to it fairly quickly - so do the kids. IF it's a good schedule it's usually easier for the kids than the parents.

Most parents miss their kids hugely when they're away. Yes sometimes it's good to have a break as well.

Almost all parents want all the kids with them all the time or just a token odd night away with the other parent. Nice for them but not for the other parent or the kids.

Reasonable parents accept they need to share and it needs to be reasonable and work for the kids as well - so the kids aren't away from either parent for too long.

It is possible that mediation might explain some of that and W see that, but I think it's doubtful - she seems to have a mindset that is her own. Unlikely to be budged as she sees it as "losing" something and feels she has more rights than you.

The court process can also help parents see how things should be - dealing with Cafcass etc and it can actually be helpful having someone else - Cafcass and the court say - "this is what should happen" - then both parents have to accept it. Because it's impossible to agree with different agendas.

So there can be positive things about the court process. It's a process - at the end of it, things are determined. The biggest danger is if she starts making very serious allegations. It's one thing to accuse you of being a domestic abuser. It's a much more serious thing if she starts accusing you of being a risk to the kids and saying you hit them or something.

So my feeling is - you could possibly let the mediator invite her and try a session or two of mediation. Taking the risk she won't do a moonlight flit meanwhile (although she can keep holding that over you). And it could help shift perspectives slightly (perhaps she doesn't want to go to court if she offered 2 nights one week and 3 the next - increasing them a bit). But it's unlikely to lead to a consent order - so any agreement reached would mean f all - nothing - nada - unless it is legalised in a consent order. It can be shredded at any time. IF it's a written agreement, signed by both at mediation it still means nothing and isn't enforceable - however, it can help if you ever need to apply to court (just to show what was agreed and was happening before). That doesn't stop an ex making new allegations though and saying - well yes that agreement was made, but it was under duress and threats and since then she has done xyz and I fear for the children .............

If you don't want to take the risk that she strings things out and it gets nowhere or the risk that she might do a moonlight flit, then you want to get an application in as soon as possible.

The other tricky bit about delaying an application to have mediation is - once it's clear the mediation isn't going anywhere, and the mediator says she will sign you both off, then it could be a race to see who gets an application in first! Because she will realise (Or the mediator might say) - that if it's not agreed you'll go to get an order - then she'll want to get in first with her story.

In some ways that could actually be a bit of leverage. IF she thinks you might go to court and you might get the 50/50 so she agrees to less than that but something better. But the stumbling block could be agreeing to have it in a consent order.

If you can't decide right now then just go for the MIAM and think about it afterwards. You can then phone the mediator and say - yes go ahead and invite her, or no sign me off please.

They are not easy decisions. The correct thing to do legally and to prevent the situation of her moving away - is to apply for an urgent prohibited steps application and get the ball rollign with the Child Arrangements - and let it all get sorted out at court.

With that process you would get a much earlier hearing, possibly even no time for Cafcass interviews, and there'd be a Cafcass officer at court possibly instead.

Finally "court" isn't quite as bad as it sounds - it's not like criminal courts on TV - it's informal. No wigs or gowns, small meeting rooms for negotiations and when going in to see a Judge it can be more like a meeting room.

The first actual hearing is called an FHDRA (first hearign and dispute resolution appointment). The idea being agreement could be thrashed out at that hearing for a consent order and it go no further. That is also an option. Leverage on both sides - both sides thinking they'll have to give way on something to get agreement, but usually the applicant (you) should have a bottom line and if that's not agreed say no - we'll go to final hearing (which is hassle and possibly money for the other person as well so that's also incentive for them to give in and agree).

Usually the "Mother" or respondent cannot ever bring themselves to agree to the 50/50 - however much they don't want to go to a final hearing and it cost them money. So agreement is only likely to be reached if you're prepared to compromise. But your bottom line should be anything agreed has to be something you think is workable and good for the kids - long term - during their childhoods - or say no.

So it usually goes to a final hearing. When there are no welfare issues there is no really good reason NOT to have a 50/50 order. You just jump through the hoops till you get there.

I think W is trying to get you confused with all her arguments. There are no arguments. You're equal parents - the kids need both relationships and the relationships with their siblings. The court won't separate them I think.
 
The sad thing is - if nobody made allegations then it would all be sorted much quicker and the kids and parents move on with their lives. All allegations do is delay and delay (but there is strategy in delay in hoping the other person will give up and go away. Usually we don't - we keep going - because there our kids).

If the law was that it was automatically 50/50 at the time of separation, hardly anyone would need to go to court.

And yes while there has been abuse in the relationship, it doesn't sound enough to stop either parent being considered a fit parent to the kids. If either of you was on drugs or had a criminal record then they might be considered welfare issues. But you probably haven't, either of you. Courts know relationships break down for all kinds of reasons.

I will have a think about what I might do in your situation. But sometimes, once an application is in, it's a relief - that it's getting sorted out.
 
Hi ash
Thanks for advice again ..


So today she has told me that she’s spoken to a lawyer and that he has said I’m spinning her a yarn by saying the kids should be 50/50 citing she has been the primary carer for 5 years while I went to work etc . She is also saying that she donated me her embroyo and now after 10 months I’m leaving her so it’s clear to see that I manipulated the situation in my favour , to have a baby to get my access of the other two and more rights financially etc. I mean we started having IVF 3 years ago for me to have the baby so it’s been long time in the making.

So I think that this is the story she will be telling everyone and will use . I can hear the cafcass call now …

“ she worked away from home 5 days a week when they were little , now she’s completely focused on her business , just very career driven whereas I’ve always been a stay at home mum working my job hours around my children …, the kids always shout me , prefer me , want me “ etc etc etc

She’s also going to say I emotionally manipulated her into donating her embroyo to me . She is definitely saying that .

So sad tonight she won’t even put the baby to bed because she said there’s no point getting close when he’s going to be taken away .

But I keep telling her it doesn’t ever have to be like that the kids need to see us both equally and fairly or work towards that as the baby grows.

You don’t think there is any chance the court would say the baby has to do 4/3 and 5/2 with her do you ? Then all the kids would be together which I know theyl favour but he’s so little I’m with him 24/7 up every night with him feeding etc etc .

She is proposing 3/4 and 2/5 alternate weeks still and refusing to budge and saying now it’s pointless going to mediation because she can’t afford it and that’s as much as she’s willing to compromise .

So 💯 I know I need to get court order whatever happens, it will only take one of kids to bang their head or something before she starts to restrict access .

In that sense I need the sign off don’t I ? But it’s su day tomorrow and I’m with the kids all day and haven’t completed the form .. can you go back and get her to sign it ??
 
Clocky123 said:
Hi ash
Thanks for advice again ..


So today she has told me that she’s spoken to a lawyer and that he has said I’m spinning her a yarn by saying the kids should be 50/50 citing she has been the primary carer for 5 years while I went to work etc . She is also saying that she donated me her embroyo and now after 10 months I’m leaving her so it’s clear to see that I manipulated the situation in my favour , to have a baby to get my access of the other two and more rights financially etc. I mean we started having IVF 3 years ago for me to have the baby so it’s been long time in the making.

So I think that this is the story she will be telling everyone and will use . I can hear the cafcass call now …

“ she worked away from home 5 days a week when they were little , now she’s completely focused on her business , just very career driven whereas I’ve always been a stay at home mum working my job hours around my children …, the kids always shout me , prefer me , want me “ etc etc etc

She’s also going to say I emotionally manipulated her into donating her embroyo to me . She is definitely saying that .

So sad tonight she won’t even put the baby to bed because she said there’s no point getting close when he’s going to be taken away .

But I keep telling her it doesn’t ever have to be like that the kids need to see us both equally and fairly or work towards that as the baby grows.

You don’t think there is any chance the court would say the baby has to do 4/3 and 5/2 with her do you ? Then all the kids would be together which I know theyl favour but he’s so little I’m with him 24/7 up every night with him feeding etc etc .

She is proposing 3/4 and 2/5 alternate weeks still and refusing to budge and saying now it’s pointless going to mediation because she can’t afford it and that’s as much as she’s willing to compromise .

So 💯 I know I need to get court order whatever happens, it will only take one of kids to bang their head or something before she starts to restrict access .

In that sense I need the sign off don’t I ? But it’s su day tomorrow and I’m with the kids all day and haven’t completed the form .. can you go back and get her to sign it ??
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After Monday's miam you can be signed off. Keep records of these discussions. And ensure you don't ever place the child, whichever of three, in the middle.

SS.
 
Thanks @StayStrong

I don’t want to put any of them in the middle I want them all to be together as much as possible and too see both parents . W wants to separate them .
 
Yes he was just advising that generally, and we can see that you want to keep the children together and your ex will be putting them in the middle possibly. And it's clear that you are willing and happy to share the care of the baby equally and she is not willing to do so with the other children.

You can get signed off at the MIAM on Monday, before you've completed the C100. Although page 9 is part of the C100 you can just print out the whole blank form, take the blank page 9 with you and the mediator can fill it in and sign it. You then photocopy that signed MIAM page 3 times - so you have a signed copy to insert in each of the completed C100 forms when you've completed it. You can complete it on computer/type it, which allows for editing and saving as you go along. Then when it's finished you print out the completed form and just swap out the blank page 9 for a copy of the mediator completed page 9 - if that makes sense.

In other words all you need to do now is print out a copy of the C100 - not completed - remove page 9 and take that page with you to the mediator asking to be signed off.

I think the allegation that you forced her to use on of her embryos is quite serious. I am sure we both know she doesn't believe that, but it's the stance she is taking (vindictive). She sees the relationship ending as you stealing one of her embryos! It's a bit bigger than that - a child has been born and the child is a child which you gave birth to and have parental responsibility for.

So the decision now is - do you

1) Ask to be signed off because you're submitting an urgent application (which you can complete over the couple of days after the MIAM) or
2 Tell the mediator it's not suitable for mediation because you have been on the receiving end of domestic abuse.

Either way you get signed off. If you go for number 2) it keeps open the option to apply for an ex parte NMO as well as the prohibited steps order but doesn't commit you to doing that. You can still do a straight application.

So one step at a time.

Go for the MIAM on Monday
Tell the mediator you don't feel it's suitable for mediation due to your partner being abusive, and she has refused to go anyway. And get signed off. If you just say she has refused to go they will STILL want to try and invite her - it takes quite a bit of firmness to get signed off at that stage. If you tell her it's not suitable for mediation due to DV she won't push to invite her and will sign you off saying mediation isn't suitable.

She (I'm assuming the mediator is a she) may still say they don't do that (sign the form on the day) and usually post it out to you. But say you need to put in an urgent 48 hour prohibited steps order so need it now. The mediator, if they are difficult, will say you can apply for an urgent order without a MIAM (and you can say you're aware of that but as you've had a MIAM you think it will help ensure there is no issue getting the application accepted).

So in other words go along and stand your ground to be signed off. Politely!

You then have your MIAM form. And can start completing the C100 form. As you can save/edit online, you could start filling in the basics if and when you have any free time over the week-end. The important bit, that needs a bit of careful wording and thinking about, is 5b - the reason for your application. I can help with that if you want.

To go back to the situation with the baby. It's quite complex in a way. Courts will generally not make an order for more than a few hours a week for the other parent, if you're still breast feeding. Anything more than that needs to be by agreement. But these days people have had orders for more time than a few hours a week (and they can argue that breast milk can be expressed).

It would be normal for you to agree that she has the baby maybe 2 nights a week. If ordered by the court it may only be a few hours a week.

When you say up in the night feeding, do you mean breast feeding? If not breast feeding then generally there's a stronger argument for the baby to see the other parent a couple of overnights a week. For younger children like that, something like every third night is probably best.

However it's unusual and complicated in that you are effectively the birth Mother who is feeding the baby (assuming you're breast feeding) but she feels she has greater "claim" to the other two children. It's possibly they may view the schedules should be different for the older two and the baby. But that would not be to her advantage. You could get 50.50 with the older two and she might only get a few hours a week with the baby (unless you agree to more than that). 50/50 "could" work with the baby if it was 2 on 2 off, ongoing for example.

But that would not be the same schedule as the older ones as that would be too many changeovers for older ones (younger ones do better with less time apart from each).

So this will all need thinking out for 5b. What to ask for.

What you could ask for is 50/50 shared care lives with both parents, for all the children, but with an increasing schedule of time for the baby.

So it would start as maybe a few hours a week, increase to overnights after a few weeks, then to 2 overnights a week after a few weeks, then to say every third night until child was 2, then every other week-end and two non consecutive midweek nights. With the same full 50/50 schedule as the other two by age 3 (2-2-5-5).

That's what it means by child focused - it has to be appropriate to the child's age and needs. Of course Cafcass may say it's fine to do 50/50 at this age, if W wants it. It sounds like she isn't that bothered about it - but is bothered about the other two seeing you 50/50.

I think that is maybe part of the issue - she doesn't really want the baby 50/50, but if you have the other kids 50/50 you'll have more of the family atmosphere type thing. So she wants to separate everything into "mine and yours" including the kids but not the house lol.

But they're not parcels. And I am sure Cafcass will say they should grow up knowing each other and having a relationship with each other. And it will need to be a schedule that is child focused, age appropriate, and also depending on what both parents want/can offer. ie usually a Dad wants as much time as possible with a baby. Some are happy with one night a week and a few hours. Your stbx sounds like she doesn't particularly want to be that involved.

Think about what you think would be the ideal schedule for all the kids. I would say no longer than 2 days away from you at this age but that's just off the top of my head.

With my son he was in nursery 5 days a week all day from the age of 6 months, had two nights a week with me and a full day at week-ends. The other nights he was with his Mother, but not with her during the day at all 6 days a week! She would go shopping and leave him with someone!

So if you factor in things like children going to nursery, they can be away from a parent all day. But at night and in the morning they need them consistently. I've lost the plot now.

Basically think what schedule you want for the older kids and what would work re the baby and the feeding. It may be that 50/50 is possible for the baby as well but not exactly the same days as the other kids. If you want the same days, then the baby would need to be with you more in between those days perhaps.

But the positive thing is - Cafcass will help work that out.

50/50 sounds like the only solution so they're not being swapped over like parcels on different days - providing it's age appropriate schedule.
 
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If you don't mind me adding, your situation raises an interesting topic. If both men and women could give birth. And both, in a male/female relationship - gave birth to a child each and then wanted to separate, I wonder if they would also both see one as "theirs". Or mainly theirs. My own view is - I doubt it - usually Dads are happy to share the care (practical and good for the kids). I think it's more about gender stereotypes than sex. Some people see Mothers as "stay at home" carers. Some Mothers see that as their role in life. Others want a career and to be a Mother. Some Dads want to be stay at home Dads.

But the children always have two parents. Also if you don't mind me asking - is there any likelihood that the donor of the sperm might one day want to claim parental responsibility as well? Or was that all legalised?
 
Thanks ash that helps my head a lot . I’m really not logical or good at maths and working out a care schedule with the 3 is mind blowing !

So I will print off the page and get the mediator to sign off on the day or do my best too - what if she invites w to mediation and she goes ( I think she will now as she’s prob been told she should ) after I get signed off ??

I really like your idea of gradual contact for the baby and I think 2 nights is fair building to more as she gets older , she doesn’t go to nursery so in theory w could have her day time too. I also agree that by 3 or should be 50/50 and I like the 2/2/3 because it means they see us both regularly . I’m not breast feeding now although I was but I get up in the night and w doesn’t, she has done with other 2 she breast fed so understandably it’s my turn . However she refuses to sacrifice any or very little time with the older ones to spend time with the baby .

How would I put on the form about 50/50 with the older two ? Should I go for 2/2/3 from the off? I’ve told her I want minimum 3/7 but in reality as soon as baby is old enough I believe it should be 50/50Do I write that in 5b also ??

In answer to your question we used anonymous donor at a clinic the kids can find out who when they are 18 , another thing she is totally opposed to. Whereas I think it’s a great thing they can find him if they ever want too .

And yes it’s an interesting position I’m in right , I’ve kind of been in mum and dad roles and I agree I find dads one million times more accommodating and fair than some mothers . I am absolutely staggered by the women out there , some that I know , some I have read that expect to stay in the family home that the husband inevitably has paid for which means he cannot therefore get mortgage , and she still expects CM and to dictate when he can and can’t see the kids ! I am absolutely horrified that it is still societal view that “ mother knows best “ and children should automatically live there . In my case I’m much closer to my dad maybe that’s why I resonate with the dad role more so and was happy to be in that role initially .

I will never understand why dads have to fight for 50/50. Most have been out working earning a living to support their family , I felt a huge financial pressure when the kids were born and I made it my job to ensure that they had everything they needed and a lovely home. It’s just a different role , I’ve been in both and both equally important and the love is no different.
 
So I will print off the page and get the mediator to sign off on the day or do my best too - what if she invites w to mediation and she goes ( I think she will now as she’s prob been told she should ) after I get signed off ??
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The mediator won't invite her to mediation if you get signed off. Because you've been signed off - either because you've said you don't want to try mediation at this stage due to urgency or because you've said you want to be exempt due to the DA.

So keep schtum. Go to the MIAM and get signed off - don't tell W. Let her wait and wonder. Carry on as normal. If she wants to have mediation she can start it herself and invite you. You're not really a couple at this stage - you are two separate people. Despite both still being parents.

The 5b bit is better done just typed in word - no more than an A4 side. In box 5b just put "please see attached sheet". 2-2-3 sounds a good proposal for the baby but not for the older two maybe. Because of week-ends and changeovers - but possibly. A bit late now so have a think.

I've linked something with various schedules to look at. It's American terminology but the schedules are good examples. These are 50/50, They also have 60/40 ones on there too.

I think it's important you have 50/50 for the older two - based on W's attitude - so they know both parents are equal. The most common one in the Uk, is 2-2-5-5 - for children of a certain age.

I think the main issue with 50/50 for the baby, at whatever stage - is, as you say - W not wanting to do the childcare. That's her choice. But also would you be happy with her having 50/50 if she was perhaps going to neglect some of the childcare? If she wants less time then that should be fine. Child's welfare is the main thing - and I know welfare includes being with the other kids too.

There needs to be an element of co parenting after separation anyway. Putting the kids needs first. If one parent just isn't doing the co parenting thing then you can have parallel parenting. Basically minimal communication and the order is just followed to the letter so everyone knows who is where when.

50/50 Custody & Visitation Schedules: Most Common Examples

See the most common examples of 50/50 custody schedules and when parents should choose a 50/50 schedule.
www.custodyxchange.com www.custodyxchange.com
 
Thanks ash

She’s saying she will come to mediation now and keeps going on about it , does it look bad that I haven’t attempted it with her or is it understandable because of her threats .

She is also saying because I suggested 3/7 initially that I’m basically going to court to fight for one extra day as she’s suggesting 5/14 and there is no way a judge will agree to that when she’s already compromised ??

But the point is I want the kids to be together long term with equal care . Would the courts agree to full equal care for example when baby is 3 or does it need to be agreed now?
 
Try not to be diverted from your thoughts by stuff the other mother comes out with day to day. You know she is being advised. Unfortunately, many solicitors are shameless and will use dirtier tricks than you can imagine.

5/14 is the top end of default position for a "non-resident" parent. The difference between that and 6 or 7 nights out of 14 is not trivial, it is immense. Additionally, if her argument applies to you, it also applies to her. She would be going to court for one night as well. Underneath this is the lazy assumption that she is more important and you are an add-on.

I think Ash has set out the options quite clearly and it feels to me that time is of the essence. Often it is better to go for more than the minimum you will be happy with, being honest about your minimum only really works if both sides are being reasonable.

In my personal opinion, court is not necessary if both sides are being reasonable.
 
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P.s. If you get your application in first, cafcass will likely speak to you before they speak to her. Lots of dads have found being second in line a disadvantage.
 
Thanks @Resolute

Good advice

So if I get the mediator to sign off tomorrow and then complete my c100 if doesn’t look too attacking as we’ve not been to mediation together first ??

It’s so confusing as I don’t want to be on back foot but don’t want to look like I haven’t tried to work things out before court too , don’t courts prefer you to do that ?
 
Yes, they do prefer you to do that if possible. You have tried working things out informally, I'm not sure why the presence of a mediator would suddenly resolve things.

Ultimately, they can send you back to mediation if they feel strongly that things have not been given a chance. Interim order(s) can be made in the meantime though, and that could protect your position while mediation takes place. Especially if you go for abridged notice or ex parte. I begged for mediation, but it fell on death ears. Submitting your application does not necessitate full proceedings. A consent order is still possible, if both sides want to resolve things amicably. Even if there are allegations flying around.
 
Are you worrying about what the court will think or what W will think? Mentioning it seeming too attacking. How does W know you intend to go to court? That is slightly concerning - presumably her solicitor will have said if mediation doesn't work then she may apply to court? Have you given her any inclination that you'd apply to court?

I agree with Resolute - you're letting her get into your head rather a lot. It honestly doesn't matter what she says. You need to keep focus on what you need to achieve.

This is tough for everyone - it's so much easier if people can just agree reasonable arrangements - but they can't when they have polarised views - which is why the court needs to determine the matter "in the best interests of the children".

To try and get the focus back - you were looking at an urgent application because of prohibited steps in case she moves 300 miles away. I think that is still important. Because if you did just go for a straight Child arrangements order, she could move 300 miles away as soon as she gets the court papers - out of spite or whatever. And it's too late then. So you do need to put the prohibited steps application in because that threat has been made and is a possibility.

And while doing that you can apply for Child Arrangements at the same time.

How you word 5b can make it sound "not" attacking but seeking matters to be determined for the stability of the children.

As mentioned before, technically, with an urgent application, you should be able to apply without having had a MIAM at all - but they don't like it. And there is a slight chance the application could be rejected without the MIAM first. It's only really the same day ex parte hearings that are accepted without a MIAM. On the other hand you don't want to delay an urgent application to have mediation.

That is the crux of the matter here. You need signing off the MIAM to put an urgent prohibited steps application in - plus child arrangements. In a way it's a bonus that she's threatened to move away as it means you have a reason for an urgent application so everything will get sorted quicker - some of these situations can drag on and on.

You could still reach agreement at the FHDRA anyway. And as Resolute says, if the court things mediation will help they will order it.

So W says she does want to go to mediation, then she doesn't, then she does. Time to be firm and focused and just proceed with what you need to do.

These decisions are tough. But I wouldn't want to risk finding she's whisked the kids 300 miles away after having legal advice. It's all very much strategy and bluff and double bluff - would she move away? Wouldn't she? Would she go to court? Wouldn't she? Is the house so important she wouldn't really move? Or would she?

You don't know basically - there can be no trust in this situation. I can understand you worrying about her reaction. And yes 1 day a week makes a big difference. If you only one overnight during a week, and then it's a two week school holiday, and she has the second half and your week-end isn't till the week after that - you can have long stretches of not seeing the kids - like 3 weeks with only a single overnight. When it's 50/50 you're never apart from them that long.

I guess the decisions now are:

1) Are you going to take a risk and not do the prohibited steps order and have mediation?
2) Are you going to put in the urgent application for prohibited steps, after getting signed off at the MIAM?

While 1) Might seem the way to show everyone you've tried things before applying to court, it's risky. You have good reason for 2) so no-one will Judge you for that. And yes W may be angry - but she was the one who threatened to move 300 miles away and you had to take that seriously.

She sounds like she is fluctuating between fear and aggression and will probably continue to try and bully you out of doing anything except agreeing to what she wants. Gaslighting you even.

Ultimately you need to decide for yourself - what YOU think is best for the children ongoing - and ask for that. The court will look at what you suggest and what she suggests and make a decision themselves - which will look carefully at the situation for the children. you are very likely to get what you ask for.

If you can get her to agree to 50/50 - fine. If you can get her to agree to 6/14 for the older two and 2 nights a week for her with the baby until she's 2 then half the time when she's 3. Fine. But it can be exhausting arguing about these thigns. She has no reason to back down. If a court makes an order she'll have to accept that. And there are processes along the way.

I've found in the past, once I actually put an application in I relaxed. Decision made - get on with it. It was then a bit nerve wracking waiting for my ex to get the papers. Wait for the blow up. Then again, get on with things - she will need to start getting prepared for Cafcass.

Go to the MIAM tomorrow - it might help talking to someone (but they WILL try and persuade you to try mediation).

One other point - if W is a narcissist she will manipulate mediation as well.
 
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