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Two mums / advice needed from dads.

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Clocky123

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Ok so before you all go mad , I’m not a man I’m a women but I’m married to a women and I have for years found myself in the position of the second parent which is usually the dad. There is not much advice for people in my situation so I tend to spend lots of my time reading about dads in similar situations to me.

I am so shocked at how dads / second parents can end up financially and child custody wise after a separation! When I chose to have kids with my wife I did not for one second think that I could end up where she could take the kids away from me and also have the family home.

Things are slightly different for us now because I have carried our 3rd child so I’m his first parent.

I’m coming on here to ask for advice.

We have 3 kids and since the first one was born she has constantly threaten to move away / take them away from me. It’s a battle to spend time with them, she won’t let me for example take them out unless she says it’s ok, she has isolated them ( and me really ) from my family who are the most loving grandparents. If I made a mistake , for example leave a grape or nut on the floor , or don’t lock the front door she holds it against me for days justifying her control with the kids and arguing that I’m an unsafe parent. She refuses to accept that I am also their legal parent / other mum. ( except for the little one I carried )

I have been terrified for years to leave her , fearing that she would take them away to where her mum lives which is over 300 miles . ( note her mum is 80 and has not come to visit the kids in 3 years and has never looked after them ) . However now I’m at breaking point and I know I need to leave , more than anything to be able to have a relationship with all of the children.

I have spoken to two lawyers who said I need to get a child care agreement etc whilst we live in house or go to mediation but it’s impossible., she just threatens to move away saying she can’t afford to live round here and it is true that it is expensive area where we live and the older two go to school.

I did think I could just move out and try to rent to get some separation from her but again the lawyer said that’s a bad idea because if it goes to court and cafcass gets involved they may see her as having bigger better more secure family home so she would get custody ( or more of it ) of the kids

I want a 50/50 agreement , I believe all the children should be together , she’s currently arguing that the two she carried I can see on 2 days only and she sees the one I carried 2 days , it makes me feel sick to think of separating them .

The house is also an issue as she couldn’t afford to buy me out or take over the mortgage but without that , how do I get a place that’s suitable for 3 kids ?!!

Everywhere I turn I just feel like I’m completely stuck and trapped .

Sorry for hijacking a man’s / dads thread but I honestly thought it would be the best place for advice . When I on on the likes of mumsnet I mostly see mums banging on about how they deserve full access of the kids etc etc . I can’t bear that thought process . Children deserve equal access to two loving parents .

I welcome your thoughts and suggestions .

❤️
 
Hi.

There's a lot to unpick here. Just an observation but it sounds like she is very controlling. I'm sure the posters on here will be supportive.

For the two children you didn't carry do you have parental responsibility. Are you on the birth certificates?
 
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Thanks for your reply .

Yes all 3 conceived at a fertility clinic , I’m the legal parent ( second parent ) on first 2 children birth certificates and 1st parent on the third one .

We have been married 4 years .
 
You have no need to apologise. Although the forum is primarily for Dads having difficulties seeing their children (due to the archaic system currently in place), we do have members who are not men. Grandparents, partners of Dads seeking advice etc usually. You have come to the right place in your circumstances - don't worry. Attitudes on Mum forums vary (we've had Dads post on those occasionally too - sometimes with awful biased reactions. There are always a few sensible ones but know what you mean.

You're in a legal situation, with a marriage and children you both have parental responsibility. I am unfamiliar with the terms 1st parent and 2nd parent - is this something they use on birth certificates with same sex parents? As opposed to the "Mother" "Father" terminology? If so it seems rather an unequal way of referring to parents! "Birth parent" and "legal parent" might be better descriptors!

But anyway you both have equal parental responsibility for all the children. If your wife views you as having more legal rights over the child you gave birth to and vice versa that is her viewpoint really (although the attitude isn't helped perhaps by birth certificates referring to 1st and 2nd parents).

Your situation is the same as any couple in the throes of marriage breakdown, separation and divorce, when there are children involved.

As Roblox said - a lot to unravel. Firstly there is the house and finances, if thinking of separating. Secondly there is formalising child arrangements.

What we usually say on here is - don't move out without a Child Arrangements order - something formal in place for ensuring time with the children. The reason being that yes the "Mother" or birth parent is generally looking to stay in the house and seek financial support for her and the children. However it does seem that legally she can only try to claim that for two of the children.

Agree with Roblox that it sounds like an abusive situation. Is it possible to live separately in the same house for now? The danger in these situations is, if the other parent wants you out, they can make life pretty intolerable, or, even make allegations against you and get an occupation order to get you out so they stay in the house. Don't want to alarm you - those are worst case scenarios - but if mentioned, it can help pre-empt that situation occurring.

When your wife mentioned 2 days a week - that is a kind of minimum a court would order for the parent the child does not "live with". The "standard" is every other week-end, one midweek overnight, plus half the school holidays, but there are many more 50/50 orders awarded these days and that is always what should be asked for (unless, as in some situations, one parent actually wants less time for various reasons).

It seems your wife is looking at it from an adult point of view rather than a child focused point of view. With one of you being the "resident parent" for two children and you being the "resident parent" for the third child.

Before going any further - legally you are equal in terms of parenting. When there are no court orders in place, then the children are not deemed to have a legal residence with either parent - both parents have equal parental responsibility. Courts prefer people to make reasonable arrangements themselves, but unfortunately when money, finances and feelings come into it, that isn't always possible - and possession is 9/10ths of the law.

So if you move out she may become deemed to be "the resident parent" of two of the children.

I'd say firstly - get some support (an outlet - coming on here is a start - some Dads find counselling a helpful support as well). But from now on tread carefully and keep your cards close to your chest. Not easy when you still live in the same house and are used to not having secrets and relying on trust.

If and when you do separate, anything agreed, even in writing, is not binding. That is when financial matters can be used as leverage against you. As many Dads find - things like witholding the children for more money, or using time with the children as leverage for a greater share of the house etc etc.

Which is why we usually say - don't move out without child arrangements formalised. There are two ways to do this.

One is by a consent order for Child Arrangements (this has nothing to do with finances or divorce - the term "consent order" in divorce is something else). That is when both parties agree the arrangements. For it to be formalised it needs both to have a solicitor - one solicitor to put the agreement into order wording, the other solicitor to approve it. Then it is sent to the court for sealing and you have a Child Arrangements order by consent. This is a legally binding, enforceable order that both parties have to comply with - equally so with an order made by the courts when there is no agreement.

Clearly there isn't agreeement at the moment and again usually it's recommended to try mediation. There are some good mediators who can help resolve some disagreements. If agreement is reached at mediation then that agreement can be put into a consent order. My view is - any partner who says no to a consent order, is likely to not keep to an agreement - ie they won't commit to something reasonable.

The mediator might also help see each others points of view, but also look at it from the childrens point of view.

A lot of the time though, mediation just doesn't work as both parties need to be willing to try and resolve things. And mediation costs money. (Although there has been a £500 voucher scheme for mediation available - which might still be available - depending on where you live - some areas use theirs up quicker than others - it's government funding). So that partner who feels they have the most power/rights is usually unwilling to mediate.

I think the way your wife views this is - she is what would normally be termed "the Mother" of two of the children and feels she has more rights to the children.

There is, unfortunately, a kind of feminist model of parenthood within social services that sees the birth Mother as the most important parent (even though the law doesn't see it this way) and this filters through to society. Social services are trained to a feminist model that "Mother knows best" and there is a special bond. This completely denies the strong bond the child has with BOTH parents from birth! And is ridiculously biased. And depends on circumstances - there are birth Mothers who have no interest in their children (or haven't bonded) and there are Dads (or non birth parents) who have an incredible bond with their children and may have done most of the care too.

I think if you applied for a 50/50 order via the courts you'd have a very good chance of getting it. One Dad on here was in a similar situation to yours - still living together with marriage breaking down. They lived in separate parts of the house while they tried to sort things out. The only real difference was - his soon to be ex was a bit more reasonable. He couldn't get her to agree on child arrangements if he moved out and she wouldn't go to mediation. So he applied to court for the 50/50 order, and in his application explained he had a plan for housing, after moving out but wished to have a child arrangements order in place before moving out and asked for the order to commence at the time he moved out, once he had found suitable accommodation. As it happened, his stbx ended up agreeing to the 50/50 after seeing the court papers and it was put into a consent order. So he had his child arrangements legalised and then moved out.

This is an option but that then brings it to housing and finances. Is the house joint owned with both names on the mortage? Is there much equity in it? One option is to remortgage to interest only to reduce the mortgage payments in the short term, so the other parent can afford to rent - until the house is sold or one buys the other out.

Presumably neither of you can afford to buy the other out?

You need to protect yourself (and the children) but if you move out without something formalised/legalised regarding the children you risk being on a backfoot if she decides not to let you see them (this is another way of exerting control - blackmail if you like) - do this or you don't see the children - don't do this or you don't see the children.

If you move out and she witholds the children then it means applying to court and it can take many months to a year before you see them again. A situation every parent dreads.

So take things one step at a time. Maybe ask your wife if she will go to mediation and see if you can resolve some issues. Keep it general like that. Assume you've tried couples counselling already but if it's a controlling relationship that might not be the best route anyway.

With mediation - you go for the first appointment on your own (you don't even need to mention you have this appointment). This is called a MIAM (Mediation, Information Assessment meeting). Where you explain to the mediator what the problems and issues are and they explain if/how mediation can help.
 
If ever applying to court it's a legal requirement to have had a MIAM - it's not a legal requirement to have actually had mediation, just to have attended a MIAM. A MIAM lasts for three months. So any time up to three months after the MIAM you can apply to court. After the MIAM the mediator, if you agree, invites the other parent to attend the next session. Which they might go to or might decline. If they decline then you ask to be signed off mediation (you need the sign off to apply to court) and have 3 months to apply to court if necessary.

So the concern about her moving 300 miles away. The options there are, you can actually apply for an urgent prohibited steps order to prevent the parent moving the children. A court cannot stop the parent moving because that's within their human rights to live wherever they want - they can stop the children being moved away.

But there needs to be a workable housing/financial plan as an argument perhaps.

1) Do you have anything in writing from her that says she will move 300 miles away if you separate? A text or anything? Presumably not - these things are usually all in conversation. If it's in writing that can be perceived to be a threat and can be paper evidence for a prohibited steps order.

2) Do you both work and in the same area? ie could she up and move quickly or is she tied to employment locally? And are you tied to employment locally?

I'll wait to see what's what before saying any more .

At the moment - she is saying 2 days a week only for you with two of the children (which is not actually possible if she did move 300 miles away).

Ideally you want agreement to share the care of the children (technically that can still be done at a distance but yes it would separate them for long periods). Courts don't normally like to separate children, regardless of who the birth parent is - they are not possessions. So I think it highly likely a 50/50 application would be approved. Then it would come down to who lives where .....
 
Ash - I’m so overwelmed at this response I feel like crying . The fact you have taken so much time to reply and with such helpful and straight forward advice- thank you .

I will do my best to answer your questions. Yes I believe she is abusive , it’s taken me this long to admit it.

She’s threatened to take the kids away the moment she was pregnant with our first and I’ve always lived in fear of that. I suspect she has NPD, she has often called me names and she even got drunk and hit me once. I had to take myself to hospital it was that bad , she was apologetic for about a day then she looked me straight in eyes and told me it was me that hit her and she has written it all down and called a domestic violence helpline. She has never been violent since, naively I assume things would get better but the emotional abuse and threats got worse I think she became so terrified of losing the kids - she has massive abandonment issues from childhood. She tells me that shel tell the courts I emotionally abused her if I fight for 50/50.

She is now having counselling but I don’t believe that she tells her the honest truth , she is too careful about protecting her false self . She is highly respected professional and charming and beautiful to the outside world.

To answer your question about employment - we are both self employed, she works from home so could work anywhere and there is a reality that houses are much cheaper there. I have a business here which I’ve built up over the last 15 years , I do work from home but I have to go in too. We’ve both had a tough couple of years with covid from financial perspective which also means that neither of us could probably even get a mortgage on house round here at this point although I will have increased mortgage affordability by next year hopefully .

This feels like big problem because she can’t buy me out and I can never buy anything unless she does and she can’t take over the mortgage because she will not work full time to prove her earnings partly because that would mean relying more on me for childcare which she can’t stand. I have said to her that I would prefer her to stay in the family home because the children have that stability , they go to school here have friends etc etc but I also don’t want to make myself look bad to the courts if I’m living in a less than ideal rental and i know it also means that il probably never be able to get a mortgage for a long time but I’m so terrified of the kids being taken away I feel like I could start again house wise so long as I got equal access to see the kids…

So just to be clear you think

- try get her to go to mediation, if she won’t go myself .

- if she goes or not get a legal agreement about the care of the children .

Can I then move out ? Does it look bad if I get a rental ? I honestly cannot see her agreeing to 50/50 , she doesn’t even let me take the older 2 out on my own . She’s never ever had night away from them etc .

I really feel like the 3 kids need to be together , the youngest I carried is only 10 Months old and he’s with me most of the time . I know she loves him , I can see she dies but it’s like if she’s not everything to him she doesn’t know how to manage him in a shared way - if that makes sense . She can’t bear to give up time with the older ones to spend with him It’s really sad. Incidentally they are full biological siblings with the same donor and her embroyo .

Im
Not sure I’ve answered everything but I’ve ranted on a lot but il stop there.

Thanks again so much for all your thoughts and advice
X
 
The financial and housing side is complicated. What region do you live in at the moment that is expensive? London? She would need a good reason to move the children away from the other parent. Good reasons are considered: having a job offer lined up elsewhere, moving in with a new partner, or, sometimes, to be closer to family. You could put in a prohibited steps application and she would have to argue why she is moving and how that is in the children's interests.

One thought - supposing you say - ok - move then. You stay in the house and the kids stay with you and have a 50.50 order. Then it is up to her how far away she moves and whether she only wants to see the kids in the holidays or whether she wants to live closer and be involved midweek. You have one advantage and that is that you are both women and both birth parents. The courts are generally biased towards women and see men as "possible aggressors" (and we all know that some women can be the aggressors!). So with you both being women it won't be assumed that one should remain in the FMH and the other one not.

Could you afford to buy her out? Sometimes these situations mean toughening yourself up and putting yourself and the kids first, although clearly it sounds like she could get nasty or be intimidating.

See how mediation goes. If she'll go. But it helps to work out possibilities first (and don't tell everything because there are some things you're not going to agree on).

If mediation doesn't go anywhere, I think you should apply for a CAO 50/50 and a prohibited steps order "to prevent the other parent moving the children away". This doesn't prevent her moving away if she wants to, but if she wants to see the children regularly it might make her think twice about how far away.

If you're prepared to get tough you could actually apply for an occupation order so you remain in the house and she has to move out (based on the domestic abuse). But - she might take the two kids with her and move 300 miles away.

In all these situations it takes a lot of thinking through and doing things in the right order. And not delaying if there's a risk the kids could be moved away. In terms of the law - all the kids have a right to a "regular and significant" relationship with both parents. It's about their rights.

Yes they should all come and go at the same time. They quickly get used to having two homes - kids adjust well to that - parents don't sometimes. They should all be treated equally. As your youngest is so young your stbx probably doesn't see them quite in the same way as not a fully grown child with a distinct personality as such (ie not talking yet).

I think emotionally it sounds very complex and she sees children as ownership rather than shared, as you say. Some people are too full of themselves, or selfish, to share.

So yes I'd have your MIAM - google family mediators in the area, ring round them and make an appointment with one you like the sound of that can give the earliest appointment. You go on your own. Explain the situation.

The reason I mention a prohibited steps order is it's the only way to stop a moonlight flit. Once a moonlight flit has happened, it is very hard then to get the kids back - especially if they've already started at a new school. The only option then, possibly, would be for you to also move nearer to the kids, 300 miles away.

In terms of childcare after separation - same as for the rest of us! You don't rely on the other parent for childcare - you have flexible working hours, there are after school clubs and breakfast clubs, and family can help out sometimes. As your youngest is so young they won't be starting school for another 3 to 4 years but you may be eligible for help with nursery care. I think you are in the more vulnerable position with such a young child and needing to earn. Do you have any family nearby?
 
To clarify I think you have a few options now:

1) Just go for the MIAM and see if she will go to mediation.
2) Go for the MIAM, ask to be signed off and put in an urgent prohibited steps application to prevent the children being moved away. This should be a temporary order, until there's a further hearing and things can be gone into in more depth. On the same application you can ask for a 50/50 order for all the children and by the time of the second hearing, have a piece to say about proposals for how separation and housing could work.

The thing with number one is - if your stbx gets advice or is switched on about these things, she may guess that mediation is a step towards possible court proceedings, so I'd be careful to say you want the mediation to see if you can resolve a few things and be very vague.

No it doesn't sound like she's the type to make reasonable agreements. A mediator might possibly help her think in a more child focused way.

Having said all that, it may be that she is ultimately only going to accept that two children are hers and one is yours and they should "visit" each other. That would be very hard for you. Harder than for her as the baby is not as well established being so young and she is probably less bonded with the baby than the other two.

If it came to a non 50/50 situation it would then be: Two children live with her and spend time with you and one child lives with you and spends time with her. Ie you would be the "parent with care" for your youngest, she would be the "parent with care" for the elder two. It would be complicated to have a 4 or 5 night a fortnight schedule so that they all were together at the same time - impossible in fact unless all the children lived in one main home and less time in the other home.

So you really do need 50/50.

In the worst case scenario, if she moved 300 miles away tomorrow and took the eldest two with her, could you afford to stay in the house? You would get an order for extensive holiday time with the other two.
 
I don't think she'd get far making allegations against you when you are both basically a prime parent for a child. It's usually the birth parent making allegations against the non birth parent! It's very common for allegations to be made, but they are usually dismissed - because there's no evidence.
 
One question though - and I'm not familiar with this situation. You say all the children have the same biological parenting. Same donor. Is your wife also the biological Mother of all three children (you said it was her embryos) even though you're on the birth certificate as the second parent? It doesn't seem like she is "claiming" your youngest (because you gave birth). But she is claiming to be the only biological parent of the two eldest by the sound of it - due to being both the birth parent and the biological parent. I am unsure how the courts would view the legalities of that. They may agree that two children are hers and one is yours. But you both have legal parental responsibility and that is what counts.
 
Ash thanks so much for your detailed reply.

So sorry I’m late getting back to you , it’s hard to find privacy in the house and things have really escalated in the last few days .

First thing - she wouldn’t let me stay in house it’s her pride and joy that she decorated from
scratch even if I could buy her out . I feel like one of main issues is that she would rather live 300 miles as the battered wife away than turn up at the school gates with a downgraded car and house . I have offered her to stay and buy me out when she can but she is claiming that’s not an option as she says I will hold it against her.

I spoke to the legal team at fathers 4 justice which I thought might be useful as for the older two I’m in the “ dad role “ they say don’t use lawyers will cost thousands and just feeds a broken system , they provide a case service that costs £2k and theyl help fight in courts etc .

When I spoke to them they said under no circumstances leave the house and apply for PSO and a shared residence order whilst living here . I’m just so scared to do that under the same roof as her as she will go mental , already in the last few days she has lost the plot claiming I am an unfit mother , not safe , don’t feed the baby enough nutrients and left the back door unlocked etc at night so can’t be trusted , she has also said shel tell the court I’m violent and that she has records etc etc anything she can throw at me she will . Then she cried and told me that I want her to Kill herself by doing this .

I cannot even begin to imagine what will happen if a court order lands on her doorstep.

I just think it’s going to be hell living with her and the F4J women said it could take 6months -1 year . I don’t know how I can cope with her for that long and im so worried about what the kids and what that will hear.

Do you know anything about farhers 4 justice should I use them or a lawyer do you think ?

Tonight she has offered 2 nights one week , 3 nights the week after so maybe she’s starting to realise she is going to have to compromise but my issue is that I want all 3 kids to be together and I cannot imagine being away from them or the youngest one away from siblings for 5 days . But will I have chance of 50/50 or do I accept this ????

In answer to your question the kids are same sperm donor and all her embroyo , so on birth certificates she is “ mother “ on the first 2 and I am “ parent 2 “ and on the 3rd child I am known as “ mother “ and her “ second parent “

Welcome all your thoughts and advice and apologies again about the long delay .
X
 
I don't know anything about Fathers 4 Justice other than they are another Dad support group (like Families need Fathers and others). I'd agree with the idea of getting an order before moving out - but understand what you're saying also. I don't think I'd be paying them £2,000 to sort it for you personally. Would that be using McKenzie friends or their own lawyers.

Most Dads coming on here for help applying to court and doing it themselves - some use lawyers and/or a direct access barrister. Some do a tailored approach - a certain amount themselves, a certain amount using a solicitor and maybe a direct access barrister for a final hearing.

You can do everything yourself. One thing I will warn though, is a common scenario for a Dad is the Mother makes allegations - for the purpose of being eligible for legal aid and free lawyers. Only one parent can get legal aid. It's usually the Mother - and only in cases where they claim dv - but there have been some Dads who have "got in first".

I don't think it really matters whether you're seen as the Mum or the Dad in this respect - but it hardly stays amicable when one side accuses abuse. Having said that, once court orders are in place, things sometimes settle down and that kind of hostility goes away - because the fight is over so to speak and things settled.

So the current situation is difficult. It sounds to me like you are thinking more about what she would want, than what you would want or what's best for you.

You say she decorated the house from scratch so is proud of it - yet she's prepared to move 300 miles away - so wouldn't be living in it at all then - so why shouldn't you live in it and buy her out?

I also understand your concerns as to what she might do if court papers dropped on the doorstep. So maybe try mediation first.

The main issue is the fact that it's not usual for the children to have separate main parents. Either one is the main parent of all of them, and they visit the other parent (spend time with). Or both parents are the "main carer" of all of them - and it's either 50/50 or 60/40 or whatever.

What she is basically saying is she doesn't want "her" children away from her for 50% of the time.

I think one thing to be clear here is - if you are both the legal parents, you both have equal parental responsibility for all of the children, so I don't think it's correct that she should have more say over two of them.

What we tend to say is - both parents are equal, regardless of gender - why should a Mum be more important than a Dad, or vice versa - both are loved parents to the children. Unfortunately some Mothers do see the kids as "theirs". I realise with the situation of embryos etc it is slightly different.

But if you think of a conventional Mum and Dad situation - the Mother is always the one that gives birth - but both parents are still equal! And can have a 50/50 order.

So it sounds like a little bit of progress - she's saying 2 days one week and 3 the next. For the older two. Is she assuming the youngest will stay with you most of the time then? Does she actually want to continue a relationship with the baby? If she doesn't then the baby would live with you all of the time and the other two would go back and forth. That "might" be ok. If she accepts no parenting responsibility for the baby. But if she does then yes of course they can't come and go at the same time, because then the baby would only be with you 2 days one week and 3 the next!

It's very clear isn't it - that it should be 50/50 - so all the children can come and go together. The way 50/50 usually works is two midweek nights with each parent, and every other week-end with each parent. That's a 2-2-5-5- schedule. One week they're with you 2 nights. The following week they're with you 5 nights (the 2 nights tacked on to the 3 night week-end from Friday to Monday morning).

That only works if you live near each other.

So housing. She doesn't seem to want to agree to anything other than you move out and her stay in the house - and not even buy you out. That seems unfair and you have to support yourself to be a parent as well.

One other thing that occurred to me is - if the baby is only 10 months old and you gave birth, this is not a good time for you to have all this - you'll be more vulnerable and possibly (don't take this the wrong way) possibly still hormonal after giving birth. I'd say that to anyone - even a Dad with a 10 month old whose wife had just given birth.

It's also a hard time with a child that age, lack of sleep etc and tiredness. So not a great time to be having to deal with these big things.

Have things been bad for a long time or just since the baby was born? Assume you tried couples counselling?

I think right now, try and start mediation and say to the mediator you want her to understand why 50/50 is better for the children in these circumstances.

I do kind of get the impression though that your stbx is more interested in the older two and less interested in the baby - hence she isn't thinking it through clearly by the sound of it. That baby will be a talking child in a few years time.

There are other financial things to consider too. If it wasn't 50/50 of the other two you may be liable to pay her Child Maintenance (hence I was saying you need to think about your own housing and finances too).

So - normally if a couple was separating and neither could afford to buy the other out, the house would need to be sold and the equity split. In that way neither of you keeps the house.

So when talking about 50/50 and child arrangements, you do need to have a plan for long term housing and finances as well in a way. Maybe you can support yourself but you shouldn't have to rely on renting indefinitely.

Going back to legal aid. As it sounds like you are in the abusive situation, perhaps you should apply for legal aid for court. Move out, and then apply for an occupation order and child arrangements order.

That is one option. Womens Aid is the usual port of call - they can give you a letter. You go to a solicitor, apply for the legal aid and start the Child Arrangements process after moving out, You could even take all three children with you and say she can see them 50.50.

If she threatens you, you take out a non molestation order (you can do that in a day). The difficulty is she may keep them and not give them back then. And you're still in a position of having to wait for it to go through court.

As you're actually married, the finances and house will come under divorce financials. You can either agree it all as part of a consent order for divorce, or let the court decide.

It's a lot to deal with (as many Dads on here know) - and with all the emotional aspects.

I would suggest at this stage that you get a free half hour legal advice with a solicitor. You can do that with two or three solicitors actually - I've done that before. Some of them are awful or rubbish. But the third one was really on the ball for me and I had a rapport and trusted her.

It helps just to get some legal advice and know your options. They will do a free half hour (and sometimes it's longer than an hour).

But all I'd say right now is - stop thinking what she wants (re the house) and think about what you want. Don't be too soft. You have to live with the result of this situation and you need to protect yourself. Is there much equity in the house by the way?

In terms of the children - yes they should all be together ideally - but - they also need to be with a safe parent. Do you think your stbx is safe as a parent generally?

Basically if you claim dv, go for legal aid, you could also be claiming sole residency of the children and ask for an order that they live with you and spend time with her 6 nights a fortnight (which is almost 50/50 but keeps you as the main parent with care). Regardless of who gave birth, it's about which parent is safe for the children.

At least then you're not on the defensive if she makes allegations about you. The court then see this is "conflict between parents" both making allegations about the other. Cafcass will interview you both and try and work out what's what.

I'm sorry I don't think I've been much help there. All I can say right now is: take it one step at a time.

1) Get some free legal advice
2) Go for a MIAM and get your stbx invited to mediation - tell her you think it will help to discuss how things will work if there's an impartial person to mediate.
 
Ash you talk more sense than anyone I’ve spoken to so far - you should set up a consultancy service .

So yeh fathers 4 justice use mkensie friend I believe they handle the full case for £2k so I was told , the paperwork and going to court . I know I could do it myself but you are right I am exhausted with new baby and I run a business in too so I physically can’t do any more paperwork at the mo I think my head would fall off . F4J seemed like a good option compared to solicitors fees at £250 an hour - what do you think ?

Going back to my wife , she has no money so the first thing I think she will do is try go for legal aid and the DV thing and she’s already made accusations though I’m sure she has no evidence as nothing has happened but she has a career as top psychologist so I’m so worried people will believe her . I really really don’t want to go down that path of saying abuse but of course if she does then I will of course have to state my case .

With regards her focus on older 2 , she does adore the little one but sadly she doesn’t know how to parent in a shared way so like if she can’t be everything she doesn’t know where to put herself . I think she focuses on the older two because she thinks that she has full legal control over them compared to the baby I carried . But you are right baby will be talking little person soon enough confused at why other mum wants less to do with him. Breaks my heart .

She claims now that I emotionally abused her to use the embroyo , it’s her embroyo they were frozen at the time we conceived child no . 1. Hope that makes sense .

Of course I didn’t I just wanted to feel like a mum and she kept telling me I wasn’t one . Still today she told me I’m just basically a step parent for the older two .

I think the only real way is 50/50 and living close is the right way . The lady at F4J said don’t even focus on house situ right now just get the court orders in and get that sorted . I just can’t imagine doing all that living with her ….

I have done my best to get her to mediation which she is so far refusing . Maybe because she knows her abusive arguments ( I’m not a real mother / I leave the door unlocked so I’m unfit / etc etc ) would look a bit daft .

She keeps secretly going off on her phone and I have feeling she will try the legal aid thing with the DV or try move to Newcastle .

Is the next step if she keeps refusing the mediation to go for the PSO ? Mindful it’s summer hols soon and she could literally just take the older two away and not come back .

Ash - thanks again for your help . You are so kind .

X
 
McKenzie friends can vary hugely and not always be good. It's not something we recommend on here. But it would be support rather than doing it on your own. But as you now know, they are not free - and neither are they legally qualified or accountable in anyway. They can't represent you or cross examine anyone - you'd still have to do that yourself. I don't think it's necessary. I wouldn't pay a solicitor either. I would use a direct access barrister for a final hearing - which would cost 3k to 4k for a good one.

The tricky thing is, if your wife does make allegations of abuse you might need help earlier.

I agree that you need to get your child application in - at least then her allegations look like retaliation. As mentioned before you want a CAO before you separate - to commence from the time of separation - but to do that you would need to put forward a plan for suitable housing if you intend to move out. And deal with the house and equity later. If you have the 50/50 order, she can't move away - because then she'd be in breach of the order.

I think book a MIAM this week and go for that. Fill in your C100 form ready to post off - for the urgent PSO and CAO. You can do that yourself and I can help with the wording. Have you asked her if she'll go to mediation? If she says no then you have the option to just go to the MIAM, ask to get signed off mediation and put the application in asap.

From what you've just said I think you need to be putting an application in quickly. And get some personal support/back up.

What you don't want is her applying to court first, for a residency order, making allegations. Then you're on a backfoot. I don't want to alarm you but if she did that she could prevent you seeing the children for a long time. It could take a few months for a first hearing before you'd get an interim order.

She might try to do that anyway if she receives the application you submit. But not necessarily. Some ex's decide to try and look reasonable before a court hearing and allow reasonable time, rather than look bad.

Be very careful from now on. Record everything and keep notes. Change your email passwords and any other passwords. A good way to keep diary notes is send yourself an email headed diary note and write down whatever it is you want to record. Eg wife was on the phone to x person today talkign about moving away. Or X threatened to accuse me of xyz today. That kind of thing.

Anything in writing can be used as evidence later (either for or against you) - so if you text or email her at any point, keep it brief, formal and civil - no arguments or rants etc in writing.

It's up to you if you decide to use the F4J system. That would be some support at least. Most on here, just get their application into court. There isn't a lot happens for a while after that. The application fee is £232 and I've done all my own applications. The next stage after that is a telephone appointment with Cafcass. After speaking to both of you they write a short report - you get a copy of that - recommending what happens next for the first hearing. So by then you know what your wife will have said and whether Cafcass are taking it seriously or not.

I completely understand you don't want to go the unpleasant route of claiming da yourself to get legal aid. But if she has been abusive then it's true - it's not like making up DA. It helps protect you and the children. Just be honest and tell the truth. You have said you've felt intimidated.

Personally I think you should either

1) Get an application in asap after a MIAM or
2) Contact womens aid, get support, and apply for legal aid via a solicitor asap. You'll then have a solicitor to deal with it all without it costing.
 
So start now.
Tomorrow - phone round mediators and ask for an urgent appointment - you should be able to get one for the next day. Go for that (your MIAM) - you go on your own. You can't apply to court without that.

Regardless of whether you decide to try mediation or ask to be signed off, start filling in the C100 form - so it's ready to go quickly if needed. It's quite straightforward but the wording of 5b is important and certain things need to be covered. What you say in there can really help the case from the outset. It's not a big box so best to put "see attached sheet" in it and type out something in word - less than a side of A4.

The other important bit on the form is where it asks who the children live with - the options are "Applicant" "Respondent" or "Other". You tick both applicant and respondent and write underneath - the children live with both their parents. If you tick that they live with her (Respondent) then you're basically giving her a residency order!

I recommend using the paper form that you download, because it gives this option. The online application doesn't give the option to put both parents (It assumes the children only live with "the Mother").

Taking action always helps to get focused and relieve some anxiety. Go for the MIAM asap. Fill in the C100 asap. Come on here for help with the wording of 5b.

On the front page where it asks what order your asking for it needs to be "Child Arrangements Order for all the children to live with both parents on a 50/50 shared care basis and prohibited steps order to prevent the other parent moving the children away".

Put everything else out of mind right now and get those two things done/started.

The alternative is - do nothing and see what she does. Doing nothing is always an option if you're really not sure what to do - but then you're left with the outcome of what she decides to do.

What is your biggest fear if she receives the court papers in the post (it would take at least 2 weeks for her to receive them?) Do you fear she will become physically violent? Or just get nasty and make threats? If it comes to you having to move out quickly and stay somewhere, at least your application will already be in and the process started.

There is a lot of leverage going on here too. She likes the house so she doesn't really want to move away does she? She might carry out that threat to move 300 miles away but it might just be threats to make you do what she wants. It sounds like what she wants is - you to move out and let her have the control over when the eldest two see you, while she keeps the family home. It sounds like you would be ok with her staying there as long as it was 50/50 shared care.

So you want the Child Arrangements order for 50/50 shared care. Longer term I don;'t think it's fair she keeps the house.
 
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Edit - the PSO is an urgent hearing. You tick the box for a 48 hour hearing. It probably won't be 48 hours as the system is so overloaded these days - it might be 48 hours or it might be a week. With an urgent hearing it asks what have you done to put the other person on notice (because there's no time to serve court papers quickly). You can put you intend to send them a text (you can then do the text at the right moment for you). The court should submit the hearing papers in time for the hearing. So it would all happen fast - you could just keep away from her that day.

In the 5b wording you could ask for the PSO hearing to also be the first hearing for the CAO - that means there would be opportunity for agreement at the first hearign and it not go any further. That's possible but not very likely unless a Cafcass officer is present at the hearing to help try and negotiate. If agreement is reached it doesn't need to go further than one hearing - a consent order can be made. That is your leverage - if she doesn't want things dragging out and an expensive court case and uncertainty, that is motivation to reach agreement. Don't budge from 50/50.

Also realised - by doing the urgent application for the PSO she won't have time to make allegations :) It'll all happen fast. But my theory is always - get in first. Submit your application, your wording, your explanation - that is read by Cafcass and the courts. It's perfectly reasonable - you want the best arrangements for the children. She's already on a backfoot.
 
www.gov.uk

Apply for a court order to make arrangements for a child or resolve a dispute about their upbringing: Form C100

Apply for a 'child arrangements', 'prohibited steps' or 'specific issue' order under the Children Act 1989. You might be able to apply online.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk

www.dadswithkids.co.uk

How to complete the C100 Form

We thought a guide to completing the form could be useful. This is the C100 form for applying for a Child Arrangements Order, Specific Issues Order or Prohibited Steps Order. C100 form on .Gov website If you scroll down the page you will see...
www.dadswithkids.co.uk www.dadswithkids.co.uk

Also look at the legal resources section above - there's a lot of help on there. But get your MIAM booked and done this week 👍
 
To clarify - don't pay anyone anything yet with F4J. We can help you get the application in without any cost. Just your £232 court fee. After that you have plenty of time to decide whether to use anyone or not. Unless you want someone to go with you to the urgent hearing - then you might consider using a McKenzie friend. Tbh that is more moral support in my view. If your wife has a solicitor though, and you don't it can be much harder - solicitors have dirty tricks.
 
Hi ash

In summary so I go to mediation on my own ? I already have an appointment next week I have asked W to come but she refused constantly then when I said I would have to go on my own she said how dare I tell the mediator she wouldn’t come etc etc but still can’t pin her down to go.

Once I’ve gone to meditation I can complete the C100 form ? Is this the same as the prohibited steps and shared residency ? Or is that different.

I understand not to use F4J or solicitor at this point although the thought of filling in forms correctly on baby sleep deprivation and stress is giving me anxiety ! She will almost certainly get a solicitor , she doesn’t have money but dad does , plus best friend is multi millionaire and other friend brother is a barrister . I need to get myself as well armed as possible , I’m nervous doing anything myself in this respect . She will definitely use dirty tricks she’s already claiming I’m unsafe because I had an eating disorder 20 years ago / left peanut on floor / didn’t tie baby in car seat tight enough / worked away when oldest was little / manipulated her into me carrying baby no 3 so I stood more chance of shared care / don’t spend any time with older two / everyone can see it . / I hit her she called Dv helpline Etc etc

She’s already having a lot of secret calls .
I have some savings so I could get solicitor now or look for a good barrister ?

Or do you think just go mediation on my own and apply for C100 first step ??

I have started keeping notes on my phone of everything she says and does but I know she’s clever enough to make stuff up and do the same !!

Thanks again Ash
 
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