Tips on cafcass call

[Ash]

Although 50/50 might not sound great to you - it's more about what you gain than what you lose. A 50./50 order is "lives with both parents" (what used to be called joint residence). This means you are both equally the resident parent - that gives you more power than an order that says the kids live with the Mother and "spend time with you". It means you are both the parent with care. One reason it might be ordered is to prevent a kind of fight between parents as to who has "residency" - ie give it to both of you equally. What it means is - your ex can't just dictate everything or stop you seeing the kids.

It usually works as a 2-2-5-5 schedule. Two nights a week with each parent then a 3 night alternate week-end with each parent. So one week they'd be with you Monday Tuesday night, then with ex Wed Thurs night, then with you Fri, Sat, Sun, Mon, Tues, then with ex Wed, Thurs, Frid Sat Sun - then back to the 2 nights each the following week.

So you'd see them every few days and they'd never be away for longer than 5 days. Except during school holidays - that would be half each.

The way the court sees it is - Monday to Friday term time is "care time" and week-ends and holidays are "quality time". Quality time is almost always 50/50. So it comes down to how many midweek nights with each - it can still be "lives with both parents" even if the midweek nights are unequal.

So it could be 60/40 or 70/30 and still be "lives with both parents".

You're at the start of the process at the moment and it can be quite slow - so it's one step at a time. And at the end of it a decision will be made. And that's when you need a good barrister - for a final hearing. But all allegations are likely to be dismissed unless you can prove them.

So if you have a video of your ex drunkenly hitting your daughter over the head - that's good evidence (and should be shown to social services never mind court).

It's a really stressful time right now for you, so try and take some deep breaths and take things one thing at a time.

You want to be arguing that it's inappropriate for your ex to take the children on holiday without you being there, due to serious alcohol issues which is why your daughter doesn't want to go back. You also need to come across as reasonable or the court might take against you.

So to be reasonable you could say that you will take the children on this holiday, and the ex can take them on the next holiday, once the Section 7 report is completed and offer to give her half of the cost of the holiday back.

If the Judge thinks there are welfare issues on both sides they might say neither of you can take them on holiday at the moment and put a Childrens Guardian in place to monitor things (that's what I mean about them "supporting" the Mother or children rather than taking them away).

I don't know what else to say right now. Sleep on it!

 

[Hackedoff_dad]

For me Cafcass have done absolutely zero, ex made allegations they took that onboard and had some kind of lock on my child seeing me, 13 months on, just infomed me they are no longer investigating and case closed, once you go to the first hearing, you are then at the beginning of a very long battle, in the meantime, keep in touch with the school best you can, don't speak to the ex other than reference the children, general welfare up dates etc, get a copy of the birth certificates, gather all your information, such as school reports SARS for local authority, Police and you childs doctors, anything you can access yourself if you have parental resonsibility, also get saving, as you will find out in time at some point you will need representation, I have chugged on as long as I can now without a solicitor and am now looking into day rate barristers, (not as bad as I thought)

I have had two solicitors who were utter rubbish, others have had better experiences on here I guess.

In short the advice on here you will get will be useful and at different stages, every case is different so its all just variables, the process still is the same, also get yourself familiar with Practice 12J - its the bible in the family court.

Don't worry, try live in the moment, go on holiday and have fun,

it will work out but the process is brutal and at times seems unfair, but you will get there in the end I hope we all will

 

[SJP]

Don't feel lost. I was just trying to explain how the family court system works - and you need to negotiate that or you have no power to be a parent to your kids. Society sees Mothers as "the main parent" when you separate. Courts don't see it like that exactly - but without an order, your ex could do anything and make you wait. And get away with it (unless something was serious enough to get social services involved).

If your daughter has told the school that, then maybe you should ask the school to get social services involved and SS speak to your daughter. Then you have some professional evidence that backs you up.

I hear everything you're saying but they're used to parents saying all sorts and don't know who to believe. So you need to prove things. That doesn't come about until the final hearing. The Section 7 will probably help resolve a few things.

How old is your daughter? If she's refusing to go to her Mothers then I think you're ok. But it would really help to have an order.

It is extremely rare they give sole residence to Fathers - it's either to Mothers or 50/50. Unless there are serious welfare concerns with the Mother - which you're saying there are and so you need to prove that. But the basis of family court is - children do best with both parents in their lives - and they're soft on Mothers. If the Mother has a problem, they don't take the kids away from her, they put "interventions" in "support" her etc (that's usually what social services do).

If you want evidence that the Mother is somehow dangerous due to her alcohol use then I think you need to get social services involved. If you do it via the school it's likely to have greater success. At least then, if they say, yes daughter to stay with you for now, and your ex sends the police over to get daughter, then you can say - social services say she should stay with me for now and it's going through family court at the moment.

Because the system is not good to Dads generally - without evidence - which can take time. Sometimes social services just say - can't do anything - apply to court.

In fact if your daughter is saying these things about the Mother, then really your son shouldn't be with her. But think about it - your ex isn't just going to "give you" the kids is she? Most Mothers like to think the kids live with them, after separation, and they control as and when you can see them (or withold them in some cases). Most Dads are applying to court just to get to see their kids because the Mother is witholding them.

Your ex might say - yes she was drinking a lot for a while but you drove her to it due to the stress of your behaviour and she doesn't do it any more - and they might just believe that. It's the kind of thing that happens.

You're in an adversarial system now where both parents want to "win". In your case you're trying to protect your kids. In her view they are "hers" probably. And she wants rid of you and keep the kids! (Just a guess). Or she might accept you seeing them fairly regularly.

In some aspects you need to know how to negotiate the system, just so things don't get worse - if your ex feels threatened that she might lose the kids completely then she could resort to extreme behaviour like poisoning them against you or brainwashing them (your son at least) or (In some of the worst cases - actually make the kids make allegations about you).

I'm just warning you of the pitfalls. What the court try and do is resolve things - not just decide who the kids with. They can order mediation to try and get parents to agree for example. Ideally what they want is parents to reach agreement on some things. If things are tense and communication isn't possible then they sometimes order mediation - to have an impartial person there.

Your ex is hardly going to admit to being dangerous and drinking too much is she? She'll want to save face.

So you have to think of it from the other point of view, to get your own strategies right.

It could be that your daughter lives with you and spends time with her Mum (it wouldn't need to be supervised if she can contact you if there's an issue). And your son lives with your ex and spends time with you.

For the moment, your daughter is with you. If your ex tries to pick her up from school and keep her, then call social services and possibly the Police.

I think the best thing you can try and do is get as much sorted at the hearing on 21st as you can. A barrister could help with that. It's your son that sounds the concern at the moment.

Thanks Ash, sorry for the rant it just hits me hard that it seems Mothers can do what they want and still be deemed a fit parent which she really isn't at the minute, the school do have my daughter seeing their welfare office who comes in once a week, her first appointment is this Friday as the school holiday stopped it happening sooner.
My daughter is 9 son is only 6 so he doesn't know what is happening to him is wrong, it's all he knows as it's the norm to him now.
I do have evidence of her being violent, a couple of videos, 1 where she's fighting with a lad at the house where my kids were when they should have been at school and a couple of her being violent towards me when drunk. I have texts admitting drug use and also admitting being violent to me in front of the kids and saying she would have stabbed me at the same incident if she had had a knife, this forced me to get my own house to protect myself and the kids.
Police have already been to see me and my daughter at my home which I assume she arranged and after talking to us they were happy to let her stay due to what she told them, the GP now has her going through counselling due to what she told her but again this is a slow process.
You're right, she has to show face and fight for her kids which she only did when she got my court papers, without going to court she would have happily let me have 50/50 and more to use me as a baby sitter
Even now she's still taking my son to drink drug parties away from her own house so if I do call anyone she's hoping I won't know where she is.
I think you're right about ss, I think it's time to get them involved before she turns my son against me which won't be easy as he knows he's safe with me.

 

[Ash]

Sorry I didn't mean to upset you - you know your specific situation and I'm just talking generally. That's good Police have already been involved and school have a welfare officer involved. The video of her fighting with someone else and the texts about drugs are useful as evidence (less so the ones where she's attacking you as they see that as a couple fight if you get what I mean). And there are factions who say if a woman is attacking a man it's because he's been abusive to her and she's lost it .................. So the feminists all stick together at times. I'm not saying Cafcass are feminists, but they are trained to a 1970s model of social work that believes the Mother is the all important thing in kids lives. However, even Cafcass sit up and take notice if social services are involved.

I think it's a good idea to get social services involved, but suggest doing it via the school and the school welfare officer, so it's taken seriously. If you report it yourself, they can also class it as "warring parents accusing each other".

However emotional and stressful this is, when it comes to court matters on paper and in person, you need to try and put that to one side and come across as calm with a measured tone and argument. Ironically, any show of emotion is seen as dodgy in a way. It's a clinical, formal process. But within sounding calm and measured, you can have some blindingly reasonable arguments - always based in the Childrens best interests and for their welfare, while at the same time, not directly criticising the Mother - a fine balance. So you come across as wholly child focused.

It's bonkers when you have, as you say, a dangerous ex who isn't really safe round the kids. But until evidence is produced that is the case, they only hear you criticizing her and assume that parents who criticize the other parent might have an ulterior motive. But you can knock that on the head by sounding calm, measured and reinforcing that you want what's best for the children for their welfare.

 

[Ash]

I think you could show the video and texts to social services. If social services are involved, Cafcass might ask them to do the Section 7 report.

 

[SJP]

Sorry I didn't mean to upset you - you know your specific situation and I'm just talking generally. That's good Police have already been involved and school have a welfare officer involved. The video of her fighting with someone else and the texts about drugs are useful as evidence (less so the ones where she's attacking you as they see that as a couple fight if you get what I mean). And there are factions who say if a woman is attacking a man it's because he's been abusive to her and she's lost it .................. So the feminists all stick together at times. I'm not saying Cafcass are feminists, but they are trained to a 1970s model of social work that believes the Mother is the all important thing in kids lives. However, even Cafcass sit up and take notice if social services are involved.

I think it's a good idea to get social services involved, but suggest doing it via the school and the school welfare officer, so it's taken seriously. If you report it yourself, they can also class it as "warring parents accusing each other".

However emotional and stressful this is, when it comes to court matters on paper and in person, you need to try and put that to one side and come across as calm with a measured tone and argument. Ironically, any show of emotion is seen as dodgy in a way. It's a clinical, formal process. But within sounding calm and measured, you can have some blindingly reasonable arguments - always based in the Childrens best interests and for their welfare, while at the same time, not directly criticising the Mother - a fine balance. So you come across as wholly child focused.

It's bonkers when you have, as you say, a dangerous ex who isn't really safe round the kids. But until evidence is produced that is the case, they only hear you criticizing her and assume that parents who criticize the other parent might have an ulterior motive. But you can knock that on the head by sounding calm, measured and reinforcing that you want what's best for the children for their welfare.

Thanks again Ash, you haven't upset me it's the shit system that has upset me, all I want is what's best for the kids, and I believe that's taking them out of a bad situation at least as much as I can, it's just so frustrating that it's such a slow process, and that they normally go with the Mother regardless, luckily I do have bits of evidence to support Mt claims and also the word of my daughter, hopefully they will take what she says seriously. Thanks Ash, you're a big help

 

[Ash]

You're doing the right thing, trying to safeguard them.

 

[SJP]

You're doing the right thing, trying to safeguard them.

You're doing the right thing, trying to safeguard them.

Thats all I want mate, as I'm sure that's all any of us want, thank you

 

[SJP]

Thats all I want mate, as I'm sure that's all any of us want, thank you

So, got my Cafcass report yesterday after they rang to say they would be passing it over to social services, basically they feel inadequate to do s7 so would like ss to come in, the ex has accused me of physical and emotional abuse, excessive drinker, excessive coke user, vandalising our car, throwing eggs at the house! Using kids as weapons, even said we split up August last year, it was March this year after she assaulted me, then said we finally separated for good in July but she refused to take me back so I've got like this, it was me who refused to take her back after cheating, all of the above is untrue, I swear, it was me abused by her, any thoughts what court will say next week? At the minute I have our daughter she had our son refusing to let me see him, our daughter doesn't want to see her because of the abuse and bad lifestyle, I'm thinking it's going to be a long time til I see my boy again

 

[StayStrong]

..... any thoughts what court will say next week?

S7 report by local Children's Services.

Expect it to be written by a student with mentor.

SS.

 

[SJP]

S7 report by local Children's Services.

Expect it to be written by a student with mentor.

SS.

Great, this just gets better and better, it seems not matter how bad a Mother is she can basically say and do whatever she wants and dad and kids suffer as a consequence

 

[Ash]

Sometimes it can be better if social services write the report. Cafcass usually do this if social services have already been involved - at least they'll know something of the history.

Does the Cafcass report just report what your ex has said and what you have said? And any recommendations? Apart from S7 by social services. Also does it comment on who the children live with and where they're living now?

 

[SJP]

Sometimes it can be better if social services write the report. Cafcass usually do this if social services have already been involved - at least they'll know something of the history.

Does the Cafcass report just report what your ex has said and what you have said? And any recommendations? Apart from S7 by social services. Also does it comment on who the children live with and where they're living now?

Would you mind if I sent it to you?

 

[SJP]

Would you mind if I sent it to you?

Ss are now involved by 3 different sources, 2 of my counsellors and cafcass

 

[HAPPYDAD2]

Morning Dads
Got my Cafcass call at 10.30 today and starting to get nervous, any tips or words of encouragement would be nice if you have any, would help to keep me calm, thank you for your invaluable support

Hi SJP
My experience of Cafcass was back in November 2019. I had my call and of course like you, I tried not to mother bash. The mother had not been interviewed yet. When the report came out I was the worse dad ever, numerous allegations of child neglect and DV. My child was only 6 months old at this time. All of the mother's allegations were printed and only 3 of mine were. Slightly bias system I think!!

The judge's response in the next court hearing was, now I have read the Cafcass report. I now need a section 7 report done to confirm Cafcass report??? All nonsense....

I now am dealing with Cafcass again 3 years later as part of a 16.4 child guardianship.

 

[SJP]

Hi SJP
My experience of Cafcass was back in November 2019. I had my call and of course like you, I tried not to mother bash. The mother had not been interviewed yet. When the report came out I was the worse dad ever, numerous allegations of child neglect and DV. My child was only 6 months old at this time. All of the mother's allegations were printed and only 3 of mine were. Slightly bias system I think!!

The judge's response in the next court hearing was, now I have read the Cafcass report. I now need a section 7 report done to confirm Cafcass report??? All nonsense....

I now am dealing with Cafcass again 3 years later as part of a 16.4 child guardianship.

Thanks, how do they deal with false allegations? I have texts of her admitting it and also videos of her being violent and my children will confirm the abuse against me and them, do they accept false allegations that can't be proved as they didn't happen?

 

[Ash]

Would you mind if I sent it to you?

Sure

One problem with the system is - you can’t present evidence until later. Usually not until final hearing (unless there is a fact finding hearing first).

So all you can do at this stage is strongly deny the allegations in a position statement and state that you have evidence showing these are untrue.

However they may still order a Section 7 because the courts play on the safe side in case the allegations are true. There are cases every year of a child being killed by a parent. That’s why false allegations are so despicable- yes it’s a delay strategy but also a waste of court time and they go unpunished. Partly that’s because it’s not a criminal court and partly because it’s all put down to high conflict/animosity post divorce. Ie they think it will settle down once the allegations are knocked on the head.

Sometimes it does settle down once there’s an order and things get a lot easier. One hard thing is to try and out those horrific accusations out of mind - which you can do eventually when you’re getting regular time with your kids and happier.

 

[HAPPYDAD2]

Thanks, how do they deal with false allegations? I have texts of her admitting it and also videos of her being violent and my children will confirm the abuse against me and them, do they accept false allegations that can't be proved as they didn't happen?

SJP: It depends on kids ages. Can they vocally tell a social worker and express thier needs and wishes. Mine couldn't so they went with the mother. I know you need to request video footage for a court hearing in advance. Family courts work on the law of probilities. Its always your word against hers, its not criminal.

The court order may suggest the matter for a DRH to consider the necessity of a fact finding.
The court will hear submissions from both parties.
The court may ask for a separate fact finding hearing or they may decide it is not necessary.
The court will direct you and the mother to seek further information ie police reports any work with social workers etc
You want dates and deadlines for this.
Don't forget interim contact with your kids.
Whist my investigation were going on. The judge ruled 12 weeks of supervised in a contact centre ( with a social worker this will be used as part of your evidence for a s7 or Cafcass report) It cost me £60 per hour. The best thing I ever did.

False allegations until proven in the court of law are only "hearsay". hearsay is not addmisable in court law and in front of judge.
You need to be stating to the mother " where is your solid given proven evidence for this allegation" Keep all recordings and evidence.
You need to discredit her evidence and always be child focused.
rightly or wrongly the judge isn't interested in he said she said

You both will need to be cross examined. Are you representing yourself.
It has took me 3 years and over 30k in legal fees.
The family legal system really is a joke.

My final advice. Pick your battles wisely. You will never win the war.
ALWAYS think BIGGER PICTURE. SHORT TERM PAIN FOR LONG TERM GAIN

 

[SJP]

SJP: It depends on kids ages. Can they vocally tell a social worker and express thier needs and wishes. Mine couldn't so they went with the mother. I know you need to request video footage for a court hearing in advance. Family courts work on the law of probilities. Its always your word against hers, its not criminal.

The court order may suggest the matter for a DRH to consider the necessity of a fact finding.
The court will hear submissions from both parties.
The court may ask for a separate fact finding hearing or they may decide it is not necessary.
The court will direct you and the mother to seek further information ie police reports any work with social workers etc
You want dates and deadlines for this.
Don't forget interim contact with your kids.
Whist my investigation were going on. The judge ruled 12 weeks of supervised in a contact centre ( with a social worker this will be used as part of your evidence for a s7 or Cafcass report) It cost me £60 per hour. The best thing I ever did.

False allegations until proven in the court of law are only "hearsay". hearsay is not addmisable in court law and in front of judge.
You need to be stating to the mother " where is your solid given proven evidence for this allegation" Keep all recordings and evidence.
You need to discredit her evidence and always be child focused.
rightly or wrongly the judge isn't interested in he said she said

You both will need to be cross examined. Are you representing yourself.
It has took me 3 years and over 30k in legal fees.
The family legal system really is a joke.

My final advice. Pick your battles wisely. You will never win the war.
ALWAYS think BIGGER PICTURE. SHORT TERM PAIN FOR LONG TERM GAIN

Thanks for this, the school have now been in touch with ss because of my daughters concerns so they rang me to say they would be investigating, which I'm happy about, I think the evidence I have is best shown to them as the court might not allow it but at least someone will have seen it.
My daughter is 9 so she can speak for herself but my son is only 7 coming up and doesn't really understand that what's happening is wrong as its all he knows in his short life although he does speak about mammy shouting a lot, cafcass are suggesting in their report that ss take over to do s7
I am using a solicitor and barrister for court as I feel that's my best chance with their experience, and the fact she is represented, ive only had 1 court visit for now and I'm already about 3 grans into it so I know it's going to be costly, but again I'm prepared for that.

 

[SJP]

Sure

One problem with the system is - you can’t present evidence until later. Usually not until final hearing (unless there is a fact finding hearing first).

So all you can do at this stage is strongly deny the allegations in a position statement and state that you have evidence showing these are untrue.

However they may still order a Section 7 because the courts play on the safe side in case the allegations are true. There are cases every year of a child being killed by a parent. That’s why false allegations are so despicable- yes it’s a delay strategy but also a waste of court time and they go unpunished. Partly that’s because it’s not a criminal court and partly because it’s all put down to high conflict/animosity post divorce. Ie they think it will settle down once the allegations are knocked on the head.

Sometimes it does settle down once there’s an order and things get a lot easier. One hard thing is to try and out those horrific accusations out of mind - which you can do eventually when you’re getting regular time with your kids and happier.

Thanks Ash, I've replied to your private message