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Tips on cafcass call
- Thread starter SJP
- Start date
Hi Ash, you did and I can't thank you enough, just finished the call after an hour and 15 minutes, she is going to suggest a S7 report is done but I managed to stay calm and luckily there were no allegations to answer as they haven't spoke to the Mother yet, I think I cam across as a concerned dad, thanks again for your supportSorry - only just seen this! Hope it went ok. I think I made some general suggestions previously didn't I?And perhaps others made the odd comment too.
Which is why you need it established, in the interim, who is seeing the kids and when. I think you need to be asking for an interim order at the next hearing - often they won’t do this unless parents agree to the interim arrangements.
When the Judge said daughter to stay with you - is there anything in writing/court papers?
When the Judge said daughter to stay with you - is there anything in writing/court papers?
These days it's all over the place. It used to be interim time ordered at first hearing after 4 to 6 weeks (if no welfare issues). Since the pandemic and court backlogs, the first hearing is usually a gatekeeping hearing (just Cafcass and a Judge or Legal Adviser). Court papers are then issued saying what happens next - eg next hearing and/or Cafcass Section 7 report. I would think there will be an FHDRA (first hearing dispute resolution appointment, at which there would be an opportunity to get an interim order and at which the Section 7 report will be ordered).
Actually, the fact that this holiday is coming up might help a bit in that if neither was showing welfare issues about the other taking the kids on holiday then - no welfare issues. Except you've raised some about her. But until it gets later in proceedings they aren't going to stop her seeing the kids (unless meantime social services were involved and took them away from her for example - which is highly unlikely - although they might monitor things if they were concerned).
If the first hearing is taken by a Legal Adviser, rather than Magistrates or a Judge, as has been happening a lot, they are not qualified to make interim orders.
So I'd suggest that when you know the date of the gatekeeping hearing, you send a position statement requesting the proceedings be reserved to a District Judge due to concerns over the childrens welfare. Which you may or may not get! But you might get magistrates at least. Then by FHDRA you're more likely to get an interim order.
If in the meantime your ex "takes" both the kids you could always email the court for urgent directions. It can be messy for a while because the system is so slow. It's possible Cafcass may decide there are no welfare issues with your ex - but you'll have to wait and see what their report says. It sounds like they're taking your concerns seriously as they said they'd do a section 7.
Actually, the fact that this holiday is coming up might help a bit in that if neither was showing welfare issues about the other taking the kids on holiday then - no welfare issues. Except you've raised some about her. But until it gets later in proceedings they aren't going to stop her seeing the kids (unless meantime social services were involved and took them away from her for example - which is highly unlikely - although they might monitor things if they were concerned).
If the first hearing is taken by a Legal Adviser, rather than Magistrates or a Judge, as has been happening a lot, they are not qualified to make interim orders.
So I'd suggest that when you know the date of the gatekeeping hearing, you send a position statement requesting the proceedings be reserved to a District Judge due to concerns over the childrens welfare. Which you may or may not get! But you might get magistrates at least. Then by FHDRA you're more likely to get an interim order.
If in the meantime your ex "takes" both the kids you could always email the court for urgent directions. It can be messy for a while because the system is so slow. It's possible Cafcass may decide there are no welfare issues with your ex - but you'll have to wait and see what their report says. It sounds like they're taking your concerns seriously as they said they'd do a section 7.
This is where it gets confusing as my c100 is up for gatekeepers on 22nd, but as she got an urgent hearing after making a lot of false allegations, there is now a hearing on 21st to see who takes them on holiday, will they keep both applications separate or merge them together?
I know if an S7 is ordered they'll want to speak to the kids where my daughter will say she doesn't want to see her but that certainly won't be done in time for the holiday, will they really order that she takes them without hearing my daughters wishes? And will they make her go to her mother against her wishes? I know this is a very complicated case
I don't think they will combine them because the Gatekeeping hearing is without parents present. It would make sense to combine them though! The hearing on the 21st is presumably just classed as "specific issues" over the holiday. However, it can be possible to get other things sorted at the same time, if it's by agreement. Or possibly a bit more. If the Cafcass letter is back before the hearing on the 21st it might be easier to at least get an interim order saying daughter stays with you for now and see son twice a week or something. It will be up to the court to decide what happens with the holiday. Did Cafcass say anything about it. It does seem a bit bonkers that if there's going to be a section 7, that a parent could take the child on holiday. But - if your ex also makes allegations to Cafcass then you're kind of "quits" and they won't know who is telling the truth - and then they'd probably leave the kids with the Mother. Except you can say Judge says daughter to stay with you.
Wait and see what the Cafcass letter says and be prepared to push for some kind of interim order at the hearing on 21st - even if it means saying it's not appropriate for either of you to take the kids on holiday until after the section 7. the important thing is that she doesn't manage to keep them from you for months.
Wait and see what the Cafcass letter says and be prepared to push for some kind of interim order at the hearing on 21st - even if it means saying it's not appropriate for either of you to take the kids on holiday until after the section 7. the important thing is that she doesn't manage to keep them from you for months.
Shit, I know she's going to make accusations, of course she is, the 21st is a specific issues case, and she will say whatever she has to to keep him from me for as long as possible, I got to see him for a few minutes at school today and he clung to me and wouldn't let go, he asked his sister earlier in the day why dad is stopping him going on holiday, so he's being told that even though the Judge said do not bad mouth eachother to the kids, even if the court says I can take them she still won't let it happen, the passports will be missing or she'll not be able to get the name changed back on the booking, she took my name off and put her aunty on instead or so she said, she used the holiday to sweeten the kids up after she told them she was sleeping with the boy who had been coming to the house (quote unquote) we weren't going to tell them til a few days before
No don't worry. It'll probably all be a bit back to front. The specific issues will decide the holiday before Cafcass decide to do the section 7 probably. I think you'll need a good position statement before the first hearing - were you going to use the Barrister again.
Your ex will argue she should go as it's in her name. If they did order you could go you'd have to ask for passports to be ordered as well.
You don't know if your ex has made allegations or not, and they might be ignored. If she does, what's likely is Cafcass will say "conflict between parents" or something and hope you can reach agreement over things. It's not definite they'll do a section 7 either. That'll be decided at the gatekeeping hearing.
I think your main argument for the first hearing would be that it's inappropriate for your daughter to go on the holiday with your ex because she refuses to see her and the Judge decided daughter should stay with you and you would like that in an interim order. So then it would be either a) you're allowed to take the kids on holiday or b) she can go but only take your son. Just guessing there.
Your ex will argue she should go as it's in her name. If they did order you could go you'd have to ask for passports to be ordered as well.
You don't know if your ex has made allegations or not, and they might be ignored. If she does, what's likely is Cafcass will say "conflict between parents" or something and hope you can reach agreement over things. It's not definite they'll do a section 7 either. That'll be decided at the gatekeeping hearing.
I think your main argument for the first hearing would be that it's inappropriate for your daughter to go on the holiday with your ex because she refuses to see her and the Judge decided daughter should stay with you and you would like that in an interim order. So then it would be either a) you're allowed to take the kids on holiday or b) she can go but only take your son. Just guessing there.
The Judge needed cafcass report for next hearing, hes going to use the call today as it was already booked through my c100, I've given my solicitor my first draft statement today and have a phone appointment with her tomorrow to go through it, I've booked a barrister for next hearing hoping for legal aid in place but I'll pay if I have to.
Yeah she tried to say at last hearing that she paid for it aswell, she didn't and I have bank statement showing I sent her the money for it, she has the passports and the clothes we'd already bought aswell. She won't hand them over easily
I'm pretty sure she would take my son without me and eventually tell daughter it was my fault as everything always was, even her infidelity. Her main objective is to Hury me anyway she can, she would hurt my daughter to do that. I think she's shown that to the court by dropping non mol and not wanting to sort kids out but making the holiday her priority and not the kids
The thing with the court situation is try and remember it's not a fight between you and ex - it's solely about what's best for the kids now you're separated. Keep thinking along those lines or you'll get tarred as "warring parents" and it won't achieve much. Doesn't matter what your ex says. She will do it. It's up to you to "correct" any negativity with the kids when you see them. But don't get into saying bad stuff about her as well or the kids will be getting it from both sides. The priority is to get a stable schedule for the kids with both of you. 50/50 ideally - then you can keep an eye on things and then you can carefully correct any rubbish your son has been told. They aren't going to let you keep the kids - they never do - unless your ex is imprisoned for something. This will be seen as a break up fight.
So - good the Judge wanted Cafcass letter first.
So - good the Judge wanted Cafcass letter first.
Even if my daughter has told her head teacher that she had concerns before we split? Do they even listen to the kids? Or take their wishes into account? If not then I really don't see the point at all, I'm not having a go at you, your advice has been brilliant but if inevitably they're just going to ignore what she's done to our daughter and not listen to her then is there really any point to all of this? A lot of lost time my my son and vast expense, the best I can hope for is 50/50? If that's the case then why bother? I just don't get it, everything I read says they should protect the kids especially they're mental health but does that not really happen?
Don't get me wrong, I don't want to stop the kids seeing her and I never will, but at least in the interim my daughter only wants to see her supervised at first and hope that she sees the error of her ways and stops treating her bad, stops being drunk around her all the time and work on getting mam back to "when she was nice" surely that not too much to ask of an organisation who claim to have the kids best interest at heart, I feel lost now
Don't feel lost. I was just trying to explain how the family court system works - and you need to negotiate that or you have no power to be a parent to your kids. Society sees Mothers as "the main parent" when you separate. Courts don't see it like that exactly - but without an order, your ex could do anything and make you wait. And get away with it (unless something was serious enough to get social services involved).
If your daughter has told the school that, then maybe you should ask the school to get social services involved and SS speak to your daughter. Then you have some professional evidence that backs you up.
I hear everything you're saying but they're used to parents saying all sorts and don't know who to believe. So you need to prove things. That doesn't come about until the final hearing. The Section 7 will probably help resolve a few things.
How old is your daughter? If she's refusing to go to her Mothers then I think you're ok. But it would really help to have an order.
It is extremely rare they give sole residence to Fathers - it's either to Mothers or 50/50. Unless there are serious welfare concerns with the Mother - which you're saying there are and so you need to prove that. But the basis of family court is - children do best with both parents in their lives - and they're soft on Mothers. If the Mother has a problem, they don't take the kids away from her, they put "interventions" in "support" her etc (that's usually what social services do).
If you want evidence that the Mother is somehow dangerous due to her alcohol use then I think you need to get social services involved. If you do it via the school it's likely to have greater success. At least then, if they say, yes daughter to stay with you for now, and your ex sends the police over to get daughter, then you can say - social services say she should stay with me for now and it's going through family court at the moment.
Because the system is not good to Dads generally - without evidence - which can take time. Sometimes social services just say - can't do anything - apply to court.
In fact if your daughter is saying these things about the Mother, then really your son shouldn't be with her. But think about it - your ex isn't just going to "give you" the kids is she? Most Mothers like to think the kids live with them, after separation, and they control as and when you can see them (or withold them in some cases). Most Dads are applying to court just to get to see their kids because the Mother is witholding them.
Your ex might say - yes she was drinking a lot for a while but you drove her to it due to the stress of your behaviour and she doesn't do it any more - and they might just believe that. It's the kind of thing that happens.
You're in an adversarial system now where both parents want to "win". In your case you're trying to protect your kids. In her view they are "hers" probably. And she wants rid of you and keep the kids! (Just a guess). Or she might accept you seeing them fairly regularly.
In some aspects you need to know how to negotiate the system, just so things don't get worse - if your ex feels threatened that she might lose the kids completely then she could resort to extreme behaviour like poisoning them against you or brainwashing them (your son at least) or (In some of the worst cases - actually make the kids make allegations about you).
I'm just warning you of the pitfalls. What the court try and do is resolve things - not just decide who the kids with. They can order mediation to try and get parents to agree for example. Ideally what they want is parents to reach agreement on some things. If things are tense and communication isn't possible then they sometimes order mediation - to have an impartial person there.
Your ex is hardly going to admit to being dangerous and drinking too much is she? She'll want to save face.
So you have to think of it from the other point of view, to get your own strategies right.
It could be that your daughter lives with you and spends time with her Mum (it wouldn't need to be supervised if she can contact you if there's an issue). And your son lives with your ex and spends time with you.
For the moment, your daughter is with you. If your ex tries to pick her up from school and keep her, then call social services and possibly the Police.
I think the best thing you can try and do is get as much sorted at the hearing on 21st as you can. A barrister could help with that. It's your son that sounds the concern at the moment.
If your daughter has told the school that, then maybe you should ask the school to get social services involved and SS speak to your daughter. Then you have some professional evidence that backs you up.
I hear everything you're saying but they're used to parents saying all sorts and don't know who to believe. So you need to prove things. That doesn't come about until the final hearing. The Section 7 will probably help resolve a few things.
How old is your daughter? If she's refusing to go to her Mothers then I think you're ok. But it would really help to have an order.
It is extremely rare they give sole residence to Fathers - it's either to Mothers or 50/50. Unless there are serious welfare concerns with the Mother - which you're saying there are and so you need to prove that. But the basis of family court is - children do best with both parents in their lives - and they're soft on Mothers. If the Mother has a problem, they don't take the kids away from her, they put "interventions" in "support" her etc (that's usually what social services do).
If you want evidence that the Mother is somehow dangerous due to her alcohol use then I think you need to get social services involved. If you do it via the school it's likely to have greater success. At least then, if they say, yes daughter to stay with you for now, and your ex sends the police over to get daughter, then you can say - social services say she should stay with me for now and it's going through family court at the moment.
Because the system is not good to Dads generally - without evidence - which can take time. Sometimes social services just say - can't do anything - apply to court.
In fact if your daughter is saying these things about the Mother, then really your son shouldn't be with her. But think about it - your ex isn't just going to "give you" the kids is she? Most Mothers like to think the kids live with them, after separation, and they control as and when you can see them (or withold them in some cases). Most Dads are applying to court just to get to see their kids because the Mother is witholding them.
Your ex might say - yes she was drinking a lot for a while but you drove her to it due to the stress of your behaviour and she doesn't do it any more - and they might just believe that. It's the kind of thing that happens.
You're in an adversarial system now where both parents want to "win". In your case you're trying to protect your kids. In her view they are "hers" probably. And she wants rid of you and keep the kids! (Just a guess). Or she might accept you seeing them fairly regularly.
In some aspects you need to know how to negotiate the system, just so things don't get worse - if your ex feels threatened that she might lose the kids completely then she could resort to extreme behaviour like poisoning them against you or brainwashing them (your son at least) or (In some of the worst cases - actually make the kids make allegations about you).
I'm just warning you of the pitfalls. What the court try and do is resolve things - not just decide who the kids with. They can order mediation to try and get parents to agree for example. Ideally what they want is parents to reach agreement on some things. If things are tense and communication isn't possible then they sometimes order mediation - to have an impartial person there.
Your ex is hardly going to admit to being dangerous and drinking too much is she? She'll want to save face.
So you have to think of it from the other point of view, to get your own strategies right.
It could be that your daughter lives with you and spends time with her Mum (it wouldn't need to be supervised if she can contact you if there's an issue). And your son lives with your ex and spends time with you.
For the moment, your daughter is with you. If your ex tries to pick her up from school and keep her, then call social services and possibly the Police.
I think the best thing you can try and do is get as much sorted at the hearing on 21st as you can. A barrister could help with that. It's your son that sounds the concern at the moment.