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Section 7 undertaking, ex trying to manipulate Cafcass?

Hobnob said:
Maybe I got that part wrong when he said costs, I assumed all of my costs.

She hasn't said anything to the kids because my youngest has been asking me constantly when she'll be coming to see me abroad. I've had to gently explain that it won't be this year and that daddy and mummy are having some help to arrange things for the future. She was so disappointed.
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Advice I got from Ash - put in an application for an official court transcript of the final hearing.

Well done! I am happy for you and your children!
 
Yes absolutely do that. So there are no arguments in future as to what the Judge actually said! Also with the hearing going well, it could be useful evidence in future (a transcript can be used as evidence). It's not vastly expensive but can take a long time to get processed - the court processes it within 2 to 3 weeks, then it gets sent to a transcription company - who can turn it around quite quickly, then it goes back to the court. If it includes a Judgement, the transcription has to be approved by the Judge before it's sent out to you - which can delay things. It can take a few months, so if applied for now, should be with you for January :)
 
My ex used to make things up after hearings claiming that the Judge had told her xyz when he hadn't at all!
 
I want to step in here and suggest a transcript is unnecessary because you were repped. Notes of the hearing will have been taken by your side - we do pay for this method of professional support.

In a part of my own saga the O/S claimed such and such had been said and went on to propose I pay for a transcript to disprove their assertion. My own Sol then produced her verbatim notes taken during that Hearing to support my own subsequent Application which I had to make - enough is enough. It transpired that the O/S had not acted professionally and did not have evidential notes to disprove our version of the Hearing. They then went ahead (with threats of costs lol) and obtained a transcript. The result was the transcipt mirrored my own team's notes and their assertions were fully disproved.

So Hobnob, speak 1st with your reps of yesterday before doing anything else.

SS.
 
That's a good point. Although it was actually my barrister who told me to get a transcript of a hearing - straight away. I think because the hearing contained a Judgement that was very strong evidence. Did the Judge make a Judgement Hobnob? That's the bit at the end where they make a kind of mini speech on their conclusion. It sounds like maybe not. I'm a bit belt and braces though! I suppose Barrister also thought I may need it for the future and he may not be representing me in the future.
 
I think it would have to be a C2 rather than a C100 to ask for an order mid proceedings. You mean she might want to put her own request in for a residency order? It's possible but I don't think it would change things much at this stage. You've already had Cafcass reports.
 
@StayStrong mentioned after my hearing that I need to be careful with Cafcass. This is advice I'm heeding as I'm already running into difficulty less than 48 hours after my order....

My barrister asked me to send the order to Cafcass and the other party which I did. I attached the order to Cafcass and asked her to make contact with me as soon as convenient. The letter I have to send to my son via Cafcass that they are supposed to be supporting him and I with, has been ordered to be done by the 26th July. Thats only Tuesday.

The letter was recommended by Cafcass, and my 13yr old son has agreed to receiving one from me. The purpose of the letter is to give him explanations and also remind him of times we've spent together. (He has erased our good memories and also wrongly thinks I abandoned him. - he told Cafcass I went on holiday one day and never came back - he denies I've ever had conversations with him explaining the separation, me moving away, being absent due to covid etc). He hasn't spoken to me since January and hasn't responded to any messages since April. He doesn't even read my messages anymore.

I finally get a response from Cafcass yesterday lunchtime, stating she has issues with the order. Firstly she will be applying to the court for an extension on the letter - didn't mention any timescale - as she needs to do a lot more work with my son first beforehand, (this wasn't mentioned in her section 7 report), and that secondly, she would be calling me yesterday afternoon to discuss her other 'points'. I've had no further response from her and she didn't call me. The tone of her email was very stand offish.

I replied to let her know I was free after 2 pm and I've had no contact since. This isn't the first time I've had problems of this type with this Cafcass officer. She has repeatedly ignored me in the past, and didn't turn up to court without explanation or apology even though she insisted she would be there personally.

I see on the forum that this can be typical of Cafcass and I do get that they are snowed under with workload etc, it does p*ss me off as being incredibly rude, though I wouldn't ever say that to them. Anyway, my main concern is, if the Cafcass officer isn't happy about the order, isn't that kind of tough sh*t? Shouldn't she have been there on the day to object to anything, and as it's been agreed by the judge, can she seek to change things and request extensions etc?

I don't have a problem with an extension on the letter providing it's still prioritised for the next few weeks. The judge and barrister were very specific that this needs dealing with urgently. Things have gotten worse since the section 7 report, the ex has clearly discussed the contents of the report with my son - I was misquoted by Cafcass and the ex has told my son what the report said, I know this because she mentions my sons response to this error in her position statement! He now wrongly thinks I've lied to Cafcass and the mother is using that against me and berates me for it in her statement! This is clear evidence she is making him privy to the court proceedings!

My barrister has warned me that any letter to my son he must approve first, as it could be used to trip me up in the future. I'm really worried it could do more harm than good. His head has been filled with lies about me and will he accept the truth from me? Will he believe me or just double-down on his rejection of me to protect his mother? And if he does believe my account of things, will he then be left confused and questioning his mother making him even more conflicted?
I want to make the letter about reassuring him I didn't abandon him and telling him how much I love and miss him, reminding him of the relationship we had and how I'd like us to reconnect, but Cafcass have also mentioned I should give him my version of the separation.
As I had an affair with my now wife, and my son has been told all of the details (from his mother's point of view when he was only 10 at the time) - in the section7 report it states my son's anger is understandable as he's had to witness his mother upset and crying - is it really appropriate to be discussing the break up and my reasons for having an affair and leaving his mother? This all feels so dangerous to me and not child-friendly.

The first part of the family assistance order has already broken down. Last night was my scheduled weekly call with my daughters. I'd only dropped them home the afternoon prior with happy farewells and having had a great time together; they both told me they would speak to me when I call them. I tried to call them both, my eldest daughter didn't answer and my youngest answered then immediately hung up. I tried them both once more and the call was declined.
I told them I'd send them the pictures from our trip to the beach etc, which they were excited about receiving, but all of my messages to them are still unread. The order states, mum must facilitate the calls, get them ready, enable the call, give them things to talk about. I think she thinks shes covered herself here because in her position statement she wrote "even with a court order I feel that sadly nothing will change, as although I will try my best as I always have, the children have stated they don't want to speak to him". So nothing has changed, just as she predicted. I'm not expecting things to click overnight, but my hope was with Cafcass involved we could gradually get the kids to start speaking to me again, even if it's only for 5 minutes.

If the calls don't happen I'm supposed to feed this back to Cafcass. As I've not had a call from Cafcass yet to discuss the order or how they will get involved to smooth over any issues in this interim I guess I have to just wait!

I'll get to the point - I don't want this to be the situation throughout this family assistance order, me having to chase Cafcass and the mother doing her best to undermine the order. Her intention will be to show the court the interim order failed and therefore delay a final order or use it as justification to not give me what I'm asking for.
I suspect at some point I am going to have to ask for a change of Cafcass officer to be assigned. I don't want to do this half way through as it's only a 6 month order. So much needs to happen with reuniting with my son in that period and also resolving this situation of going 4 weeks without contact with my daughters in-between my monthly weekends. I just can't afford to do more visits than the monthly weekends I've committed to, so the indirect contact is really important, and that's why the mother has done her utmost to create this refusal to speak to me from the kids and will do her best to stop that from being reversed.

Should I want to get this Cafcass officer removed how would I go about it? And would it look bad on me? I can be patient for now, but the timescales are short so I can't let this order just plod along and nothing improve.

Unfortunately, despite court going my way on Monday, I know the game playing and the obstruction isn't just going to evaporate. The ex can play nice and act friendly in short bursts but it never lasts, and I'm sure in the background the hostility towards me is as apparent with the kids as ever.
 
I suspect that after court my ex would have been straight on the phone to Cafcass complaining that it wasn't fair, I had a barrister and she was coerced and bullied into agreeing, that she was manipulated, it was 3 men against her etc....
 
Don't you hate it when you're right!! Urgent letter from the court this morning from the ex stating that she was railroaded by my barrister, doesn't agree with various points, was sent the order without seeing a draft first, has now had legal advice, and seeks the courts assistance to get several points revoked. The judge wants my observations by the 28th July.

I am beyond gutted.
 
I've spoken with my barrister and he's made a small amendment to the recitals. He told me to send this to ex and ask for her agreement or otherwise by 4pm today. If she ignores or disagrees I'm to send it to the court marked urgent for the judge.

I've spoken with the clerk's and as of yet the court hasn't made the order that was agreed at the hearing. The clerk told me to chase it up after 1 week. Is this typical?

After my FHDRA the order was made on the same day and sent to me 2 days later. As it stands I don't know when or if my order will come into effect? Although part of what was ordered on the day of the hearing applied to the same day in relation to me collecting my girls later that afternoon. I assumed my order began immediately and it was only a case of waiting for the barrister to write it up for the judge.
 
The saga continues and I'm updating in real time....!

So after sending the revised order to my ex she has now written her OWN order in a new format/template and changed wording and preamble all the way through! She had the forethought to cc my barrister into her new amended order, and also pointed out to him his mistakes !!!!!

My barrister was initially lenient towards the mother wanting to revise, however, having now seen her arrogance and being told off by her, he has firmly put her in her place and told her that the order has been made by the judge and cannot be changed. He also informed her that the template she has found is not appropriate to the facts of our case. If she insists on putting her own order in front of the judge, contrary to the one that WAS ordered by the judge, we will oppose it and have it placed before the judge.
I can feel another hearing coming on next week, as the judge was very specific to her about the consequences of her not following this order!!

Not only as she not followed it, but she's actually tried to re-write it !!!!!!!

I suspect I will have further updates to follow.....


Maybe she'll inform the judge that he doesn't know what he's doing too!!! She may as well go for the hat-trick as she's already told Cafcass and my barrister how wrong they are!!!!!
 
Quick update for anyone who may be following my story.

My barrister has sent an email to the judge attaching the original interim order, plus one small amendment to make one of the recitals a little bit clearer (it was already clear but we are dealing with an ex who struggles with comprehension), plus the mothers own completely re-written order. My barrister points out that her version is not in line with what the judge ordered, goes far beyond the allowed slip amendments for typos, and that she has in fact completely changed the order and added something in that the judge DID NOT agree to, she's added an order for another hearing! He has made it clear we oppose the mother's revised order. He has also informed the judge that contrary to mother's claim that she was rushed into agreement at the hearing, she was allowed as much time as she wanted to read the order on my barrister's computer.

I'll chase this with the court on Monday as this judge is part time and my order is already now a week delayed. My barrister has given Cafcass extra time to organise my sending a letter to my son.
It's up to the judge now.

Let's see what unfolds once the order is issued and Cafcass are involved with the family assistance order. I feel the next few weeks and months are going to be as challenging, if not more, than the past 2 years have been.
 
I sense and understand your absolute frustration and disbelief only too well. Unfortunately Hobnob there are a number of Ex's who will operate on the extremes of the Family Court processes and in the initial stages still believe they can do as they please and their wishes will supersede anyone else's including that of the Court. When it first happens it's hard to believe and take in and the frustration it causes is immense.

You engaged as you witnessed at the FHDRA a good experienced Barrister and your case is being heard before a reasonable and rational District Judge who has given after hearing the evidence, an interim order.
From my own experience as my Ex has tried the same tactics, I can give you assurance that neither Barrister's nor more importantly, the Courts do they approve of such behaviour. The odd word here or there or a line which needs a little more clarity might be fair game between 2 opposing Barrister's agreeing a draft order but a complete disregard of what the D. Judge has ordered will be dealt with very strongly. The Family Court process as we know is difficult and is suffering greatly from too many cases and being under funded from Central Government to its requirements but once cases are heard both Judges and Magistrates take a very strong view to new orders which are disregarded to this extent and in such a crass way.

It might take a little time but my view from my own past experiences is your Ex is digging a very big hole for herself after the FHDRA and a Final Hearing is yet to come.

I think from what you have said, once the Judge goes through what your Barrister has emailed he will be very forceful and direct with her - she is after all challenging the Courts authority in a major way and they really do not like that.
It will be seen as obstruction, disrespectful and frustrating the Interim Order made in the best interests of the children.
The Judge will also be mindful this is an Interim Order and a Final Order is yet to be made and I would be very surprised if by learning what has happened over the last few days if he doesn't make her aware in the strongest way possible of the consequences of her actions.

You have a good experienced proactive Barrister on your side and he will know exactly the correct procedures in his replies to your Ex and to the Judge. Your Barrister is also now getting to know how your Ex operates and if you are able to retain him for the Final Hearing it will be of use as they have previous insight into character weakness - useful when they cross examine.

I and many like me years of Court Hearings with Ex's who will do and say absolutely anything to retain that sense control over young children will understand your absolute frustration and incredulity.

In my case after an almost year long C.A. process and hearings an order was made and given, which came out more favourably to me than her - or put another way reasonableness and fairness against her numerous wild allegations without evidence prevailed.

I like you breathed a sigh of relief that we could now move forward with a very detailed and precise order. This new beginning lasted just over a week as whilst on my way to collect my son to enjoy without dispute, the ordered period of the school holiday it was from Social Services to say a referral has been made against me and that I must not and will not have any contact with my son until further notice. I asked what this was about and was bluntly informed they could not give me details but the Police would and they would be in touch in due course.

I won't go into further detail but my contact was stopped for a period of time whilst the matter was investigated by both Social Services and the Police. After the first case was investigated and found to have no merit and was to be dropped my Ex makes another allegation along the same lines - so the process of investigation has to be gone through again.
Same result no case to answer to what where very serious allegations.

Both my Solicitor and Barrister ( as they had now got to know how my Ex operates ) advised even before being discharged and the very damning Social Services report had been issued was to return this to Court as a deliberate breach of the very recently made order.
We might not get the breach accepted but it would send a very strong marker of what would happen if these dreadful tactics were to continue.

The first hearing was heard reasonably quickly ( pre covid times ! ) and as it turned out was before the same 3 Magistrates who made the Child Arrangements Order. They read the evidence and in no uncertain terms spoke directly to my Ex as to what they could do to any parent who disregards to such an extent a Court Order. My very experienced Solicitor at the that first hearing said it was the strongest she had ever heard speak to a respondent in Court giving fair warning of what would happen if such antics continued.

Diary everything Hobnob and then email the note to yourself so its time stamped. A very early useful lesson that was learnt.

It will get a lot easier for both you and the children when you have that Final Order. To that Final Order you make it as detailed and as tight as possible and I'm sure much advice at the right time will be given from experienced members of this site.
 
Anyway, my main concern is, if the Cafcass officer isn't happy about the order, isn't that kind of tough sh*t? Shouldn't she have been there on the day to object to anything, and as it's been agreed by the judge, can she seek to change things and request extensions etc?
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I wouldn't put anything past them.

But reading your follow on posts - sadly this is fairly typical post hearing - my ex did the same - refused to agree the order wording and wanted to change everything. It was worse really because she had a solicitor who was doing the same thing! My Solicitor said as your Barrister did - this is what the court ordered and I have notes to prove it - wrote to the court and confirmed this was what was agreed and asked them to seal the order anyway. Unfortunately the Judge was flakey - took ages to reply and said some woolly type thing like - I hope the parties can agree these minor issues or it will mean a return to court and that would be a waste of resources and she would write a "standard" order. I didn't know what that meant - neither did my solicitor. Solicitor said - avoid return to court at all costs, you have a good order (I now think that was bad advice). There then followed 2 to 3 weeks of further solicitor negotiations which ran up a couple more thousand in bills for me - and I ended up giving way on defined phone calls in holidays and adding a recital, just to get the damned order sealed. Thinking - I can always go back again if I don't get any at all.

My ex breached the order in every way until it was sealed. It's not enforceable until it's sealed (which is probably why your ex isn't following it now).

I did have a barrister but also a solicitor and in those situations it's the solicitor's job to write up the order. Which is why I now think it's better to have a direct access barrister - so they have to write up the order and they have more clout. My barrister confirmed that the order stands from the day of the hearing and can't be altered afterwards - except by agreement.

I was disappointed that the Judge didn't just seal the order straight away, despite the other side not agreeing the wording.

I hope you don't have to return to court over it and your Barrister has more clout with the Judge. If you did have to go back then I agree with Km5 - the Judge will not be impressed with her (and yours sounds worse than mine was - mine was trying the emotional distress argument rather than being stroppy with the court).

This is all par for the course unfortunately, when you get an interim order, the ex doesn't like it and wants her own way and yes she probably has been bending Cafcass ear.

Sadly your ex is doing parental alienation - showing your son court documents. I had to learn very early on to be incredibly careful what I put in emails as my ex showed them to my son "to prove Dad was attacking her". They were always polite and courteous but she could twist the content.

Doing this straight after yours and your kids happiness is part of it - to punish you all. Yes she will have been distressed about an affair, and yes the children may have been aware of that, but plenty of people have been in that situation and still put their kids first. And plenty of ex's behave like this even if you haven't met someone else. She shouldn't use the kids as weapons.

I hope this becomes more and more clear. It may be the Cafcass officer was worried about the letter to your son being too soon - and not much else.

I am not sure how much influence Cafcass have over order wording - I know they wrote my first order! Which was terrible. I was green then. I made sure I had order wording approved at court and recorded by the Barrister next time. And took a draft order with me so there could be no arguments about the wording later - and still there were arguments about the wording.

Hang in there. One step at a time.
 
Ash said:
I wouldn't put anything past them.

But reading your follow on posts - sadly this is fairly typical post hearing - my ex did the same - refused to agree the order wording and wanted to change everything. It was worse really because she had a solicitor who was doing the same thing! My Solicitor said as your Barrister did - this is what the court ordered and I have notes to prove it - wrote to the court and confirmed this was what was agreed and asked them to seal the order anyway. Unfortunately the Judge was flakey - took ages to reply and said some woolly type thing like - I hope the parties can agree these minor issues or it will mean a return to court and that would be a waste of resources and she would write a "standard" order. I didn't know what that meant - neither did my solicitor. Solicitor said - avoid return to court at all costs, you have a good order (I now think that was bad advice). There then followed 2 to 3 weeks of further solicitor negotiations which ran up a couple more thousand in bills for me - and I ended up giving way on defined phone calls in holidays and adding a recital, just to get the damned order sealed. Thinking - I can always go back again if I don't get any at all.

My ex breached the order in every way until it was sealed. It's not enforceable until it's sealed (which is probably why your ex isn't following it now).

I did have a barrister but also a solicitor and in those situations it's the solicitor's job to write up the order. Which is why I now think it's better to have a direct access barrister - so they have to write up the order and they have more clout. My barrister confirmed that the order stands from the day of the hearing and can't be altered afterwards - except by agreement.

I was disappointed that the Judge didn't just seal the order straight away, despite the other side not agreeing the wording.

I hope you don't have to return to court over it and your Barrister has more clout with the Judge. If you did have to go back then I agree with Km5 - the Judge will not be impressed with her (and yours sounds worse than mine was - mine was trying the emotional distress argument rather than being stroppy with the court).

This is all par for the course unfortunately, when you get an interim order, the ex doesn't like it and wants her own way and yes she probably has been bending Cafcass ear.

Sadly your ex is doing parental alienation - showing your son court documents. I had to learn very early on to be incredibly careful what I put in emails as my ex showed them to my son "to prove Dad was attacking her". They were always polite and courteous but she could twist the content.

Doing this straight after yours and your kids happiness is part of it - to punish you all. Yes she will have been distressed about an affair, and yes the children may have been aware of that, but plenty of people have been in that situation and still put their kids first. And plenty of ex's behave like this even if you haven't met someone else. She shouldn't use the kids as weapons.

I hope this becomes more and more clear. It may be the Cafcass officer was worried about the letter to your son being too soon - and not much else.

I am not sure how much influence Cafcass have over order wording - I know they wrote my first order! Which was terrible. I was green then. I made sure I had order wording approved at court and recorded by the Barrister next time. And took a draft order with me so there could be no arguments about the wording later - and still there were arguments about the wording.

Hang in there. One step at a time.
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Thanks Ash for sharing your own experience of this. I've been searching to see if this ever happens and drawing a blank so it helps to know I'm not the only one experiencing it!

The frustrating thing is that my barrister gave the ex the draft order to read on his computer and told her she could take as long as she wanted to read it. She only requested to change one thing which was a time for me to call my kids once a week. She never complained about any wording at the time. She now claims she was never 'sent a draft', was 'rushed and railroaded' by my barrister and 'on refelction' she needed legal advice.....

We are 7 months in, and this is the arrogant woman who mocked me for having done research on the court process, now realising maybe she needed legal advice and couldn't just rock up to court unprepared and get all her own way.

My barrister didn't send the exact draft to her 'for approval', but when I sent my position statement to her prior to the hearing I also sent a draft order. She held off sending her position statement until after receiving mine first, and when hers came and agreed to nothing, my barrister and I made changes to the order, basically backing down because we knew in the interim there was no point continuing trying to get agreement and she'd only keep raising further allegations to stop it being ordered.

The draft order she saw at the hearing was basically the same as the one that had been sent to her prior, with everything she wasn't happy with taken out. So she had already seen the recitals and the wording.

Anyway, if the judge won't order the agreed order from my barrister today or by the end of this week then I will take it back to court and fight her on this. If I don't have this interim order I basically have nothing.
She's doing it because she has to control everything with the kids, right down to the exact wording! She's even changed dates for Cafcass deadline for their report and changed the date of the final hearing !! She signed her revised order on behalf of the judge !!!! I really hope the judge is p*ssed off and offended by her actions!

Cafcass have ignored me so I can only assume that they are waiting for the order before they'll contact me again.
I'm just going to sit tight on that now and wait for them to approach me first.

So if I have this right, you believe it's advisable at any future hearings to include making sure she agrees to the wording of any order before we leave court? I'm still trying to get my head around the fact she can dispute it !

When you look at court procedure rules, it allows for 'slip rule amendment', correction of typos, minor errors, you can request a court transcript if you state the order is entirely different to what was agreed in court, or you can lodge permission to appeal if the judge has not followed the law. Otherwise, everything I've read says you cannot change a court order just because you don't agree with the decision !

How can this even be entertained by judges! As the judge in my case was very specific in warning her of the consequences of not following this order, I'm just hopeful he will not be impressed and dismiss her attempt to undermine and derail the order.

It's very telling that she hasn't implemented facilitating a call for me with my kids in the meantime, she's clearly waiting for it to be ordered first, and yet this is a mother who Cafcass say is promoting the kids to have contact with me ?????
 
Km5 said:
I sense and understand your absolute frustration and disbelief only too well. Unfortunately Hobnob there are a number of Ex's who will operate on the extremes of the Family Court processes and in the initial stages still believe they can do as they please and their wishes will supersede anyone else's including that of the Court. When it first happens it's hard to believe and take in and the frustration it causes is immense.

You engaged as you witnessed at the FHDRA a good experienced Barrister and your case is being heard before a reasonable and rational District Judge who has given after hearing the evidence, an interim order.
From my own experience as my Ex has tried the same tactics, I can give you assurance that neither Barrister's nor more importantly, the Courts do they approve of such behaviour. The odd word here or there or a line which needs a little more clarity might be fair game between 2 opposing Barrister's agreeing a draft order but a complete disregard of what the D. Judge has ordered will be dealt with very strongly. The Family Court process as we know is difficult and is suffering greatly from too many cases and being under funded from Central Government to its requirements but once cases are heard both Judges and Magistrates take a very strong view to new orders which are disregarded to this extent and in such a crass way.

It might take a little time but my view from my own past experiences is your Ex is digging a very big hole for herself after the FHDRA and a Final Hearing is yet to come.

I think from what you have said, once the Judge goes through what your Barrister has emailed he will be very forceful and direct with her - she is after all challenging the Courts authority in a major way and they really do not like that.
It will be seen as obstruction, disrespectful and frustrating the Interim Order made in the best interests of the children.
The Judge will also be mindful this is an Interim Order and a Final Order is yet to be made and I would be very surprised if by learning what has happened over the last few days if he doesn't make her aware in the strongest way possible of the consequences of her actions.

You have a good experienced proactive Barrister on your side and he will know exactly the correct procedures in his replies to your Ex and to the Judge. Your Barrister is also now getting to know how your Ex operates and if you are able to retain him for the Final Hearing it will be of use as they have previous insight into character weakness - useful when they cross examine.

I and many like me years of Court Hearings with Ex's who will do and say absolutely anything to retain that sense control over young children will understand your absolute frustration and incredulity.

In my case after an almost year long C.A. process and hearings an order was made and given, which came out more favourably to me than her - or put another way reasonableness and fairness against her numerous wild allegations without evidence prevailed.

I like you breathed a sigh of relief that we could now move forward with a very detailed and precise order. This new beginning lasted just over a week as whilst on my way to collect my son to enjoy without dispute, the ordered period of the school holiday it was from Social Services to say a referral has been made against me and that I must not and will not have any contact with my son until further notice. I asked what this was about and was bluntly informed they could not give me details but the Police would and they would be in touch in due course.

I won't go into further detail but my contact was stopped for a period of time whilst the matter was investigated by both Social Services and the Police. After the first case was investigated and found to have no merit and was to be dropped my Ex makes another allegation along the same lines - so the process of investigation has to be gone through again.
Same result no case to answer to what where very serious allegations.

Both my Solicitor and Barrister ( as they had now got to know how my Ex operates ) advised even before being discharged and the very damning Social Services report had been issued was to return this to Court as a deliberate breach of the very recently made order.
We might not get the breach accepted but it would send a very strong marker of what would happen if these dreadful tactics were to continue.

The first hearing was heard reasonably quickly ( pre covid times ! ) and as it turned out was before the same 3 Magistrates who made the Child Arrangements Order. They read the evidence and in no uncertain terms spoke directly to my Ex as to what they could do to any parent who disregards to such an extent a Court Order. My very experienced Solicitor at the that first hearing said it was the strongest she had ever heard speak to a respondent in Court giving fair warning of what would happen if such antics continued.

Diary everything Hobnob and then email the note to yourself so its time stamped. A very early useful lesson that was learnt.

It will get a lot easier for both you and the children when you have that Final Order. To that Final Order you make it as detailed and as tight as possible and I'm sure much advice at the right time will be given from experienced members of this site.
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This is all very good advice. Whilst I am very sorry that you have also experienced having your order undermined in such a disruptive way and so rapidly, I do take comfort that in your opinion the court will take a dim view of this !
The lesson for me is to try and counter everything she may attempt to do to derail any order given as proactively as I can ! It's not a good way to have to think or live your life worrying about what the next round of game playing and obstruction will be, but I have accepted that this is the way it is and likely will never change.
 
The frustrating thing is that my barrister gave the ex the draft order to read on his computer and told her she could take as long as she wanted to read it. She only requested to change one thing which was a time for me to call my kids once a week. She never complained about any wording at the time. She now claims she was never 'sent a draft', was 'rushed and railroaded' by my barrister and 'on refelction' she needed legal advice.....
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She's just trying it on. That is very good that the Barrister went through the order with her at court and any amendments were made then. My ex tried exactly the same thing "on reflection". These kind of people just cannot accept that the law is the law - they think they are above the law. Under law, that order "stands" from the day of the hearing - no back pedalling and negotiation afterwards - that was the hearing and the order made, on the day. However she is pushing the argument that she didn't have legal advice at the time. I'm not sure if that would work or not. My understanding is she didn't have to agree anything on the day if she had no lawyer. But she didn't did she? It was ordered by the court and wasn't by consent. So she can't claim she was railroaded because the order wasn't by consent. Your barrister just went through the order wording with her. And even allowed her to amend the odd thing - within the remit of what was ordered - and that's the important thing.

Essentially now, the Barrister has confidence his order reflects exactly what the Judge ordered, and the Judge should agree with that. My situation was slightly different as it was a consent order mostly - thrashed out between barristers at final hearing. Like you though, the wording was there on the day. And she tried to change it afterwards.

Their grandiosity is unbelievable - they think they don't have to commit to anything - even at a court of law. They can rewrite the rules and law themselves - which she is trying.

I suspect your Judge won't let this wash. However I suspect your ex is making all this drama to make Cafcass anxious about the kids. Cafcass will be concerned that if ex is going off the scale, this will be affecting the kids. Their concern is the kids welfare. That is how ex's manipulate Cafcass. I would hope that the Judge is not now influenced by Cafcass after the event and sticks to his guns. Presumably the Judge will see this thing where she's rewritten it and said the Judge ordered this.

Is she basically just claiming that your Barrister misrepresented what the Judge ordered? She'd have a hard time claiming that - a Barrister has high standing in the court. As mentioned before though, the only slight thing that might wash with the Judge is her saying she had no legal advice but I am really not sure if that is relevant or not.

However unpleasant this is, she is basically like a toddler throwing her toys out of the pram isn't she? "It's not fair". And she is not used to not being the Queen Bee and everyone agreeing with her because she is the Mother.

And this is just an interim order! I do think the Judge/court will note her behaviour - this is the run up to final hearing. A lot will depend on the family assistance order from now on I think, and what Cafcass reports back and recommends. And I agree with you - they can xxxx up. They are trained social workers but they are not trained in parental alienation.

The ploy of a hostile ex is to try and get Cafcass to think that the conflict for the kids is so harmful it would be easier just to leave them with the Mother, to get them out of conflict. And that is wrong. And that's why you sometimes need a Barrister. The correct thing in that situation is to give residency to the other parent. If the Mother is high conflict and won't follow orders - not to give in to her and let her have her own way and get away with manipulation. But there are things that could make her behave. For one, cross examination at final hearing. That can be pretty brutal sometimes, and one Dad in particular said his ex never made a peep again after that. She would never want to go through it again. In his case he'd had the most horrific allegations against him as well. He got a 50/50 order.

So as said before - one day at a time. There will be lots of ups and downs until after final hearing. But take it one step at a time.

And yes if it does have to go back to court over the interim order then yes fight it. This isn't a final order, it's an interim order so my feeling is the Judge won't want another hearing over it and hopefully the Judge will accept the Barrister's order wording.
 
I also had a lot of stuff thrown out by my ex after the final hearing (not the interim one so slightly different). My solicitor at the time said - don't let it get to you ignore - she's like an animal who has just been caged and thrashing about. (Which while it might have been a thoughtful analysis of my ex, I thought was too generous. She was being a spoiled brat - which unfortunately, she always has been). While it doesn't change anything, understanding the ex's personality can help you look at things for your own peace of mind and way of handling things. What is your ex's background? Mine was an only child, with elderly parents. She was spoiled rotten. I also think she had an attachment disorder from some early life thing. (Having read up about parental alienation). But sometimes you can analyse too much and essentially this is not reasonable behaviour and it's spoiled brat behaviour, combined with hatred and revenge, because you left her and she was hurt. She needs to move on from that.

A very common thing, even without an affair, is an ex like this never accepting another woman being involved with "her" children. Competitiveness - because it's irrational. Children can love a lot of people, in different ways, in both families. It isn't a competition. So it's all about her isn't it? She has a new man - what's she complaining about?

Another element is just pure selfishness. Life would be so much easier if she could just have a full time family with no hassle and schedules and not have to deal with you again.

Keep your eye on Cafcass though. If dealing with them I'd be careful to always sound courteous. They are essentially biased towards children remaining with Mothers.

It's because of complex situations like this that a Barrister can really fight your corner. In straightforward cases it might be fine just doing it yourself. But as your ex has just found out - the law is the law. She will probably get a barrister herself for the final hearing now, do you think?
 
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I had good news today, response from the judge saying he has considered mothers email the day after the last hearing (in which she tried to claim she doesn't agree with the order and was railroaded and rushed at the hearing), he has considered fathers and father's counsels response opposing mothers viewpoint, he has considered amendment made by fathers counsel to make one recital clearer for the mother, and has considered mother's draft which changed the order..... Judge's response is that he does NOT accept mother's changes and that the original order stands with the minor amendment we agreed to.

He concluded with, "I am not prepared to accept any further correspondence about this order".

The order was attached exactly as my barrister set out and is dated from 10 days ago, the date of the hearing. Consequently she's already breached twice on phonecalls! As Cafcass have been noticeable by their absence I shall await for their contact or chase them next week as we are now behind schedule on deadlines for the family assistance order.


I am so pleased that the judge has held fast against the mother's attempt to derail my interim order and hope this makes her see she has to comply. Won't hold my breath though !
 
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