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Section 7 undertaking, ex trying to manipulate Cafcass?

Yes costs are definitely an issue. There have been cases where the court has paid for psychologists reports, but I think that is rare and it may be a not very good psychologist! A top one costs about 20k. I think average is 6 or 7k. I wouldn't pay for private therapy for your son though - that is something that the court frowns on - it needs to be court ordered therapy by an impartial therapist - not one chosen by either parent. Also it might make things worse for your son if he's living with his Mother while having it - she will still pressurise him (and possibly the therapist too).

Has she got any "evidence" of you being angry? Like have you sent her any nasty threatening texts or emails? We all get angry sometimes - and that's normal during a break up. But yes with court, you can be painted as "possibly aggressive". Hopefully she doesn't have anything like that. If she has, you will see her evidence and allegations before you have to respond to them so you can prepare responses and be straight and say - yes I was angry on that occasion and lost patience with attempts to try and see my children. I have realised since that there is a need for both parents to try to be more co-operative for the sake of the children. That kind of thing. Your evidence can also include some polite, blindingly reasonable emails from you and some nasty ones from her. Showing her attitude. Which she has shown the court already it seems!

Sometimes asking for psychologists reports is more of a "threat" if the other side are asking for a fact find. During negotiations and so on before the hearing. That might make the solicitor from the other side back down a bit realising their client really is bonkers and probably alienating. Also even if you ask for them, you're not committed. The court might say yes we can order psychologists reports, but only if you pay for them. Then it's up to you - you don't have to go ahead. It's kind of being a bit on the attack rather than always on the defence. Which is something a lawyer can do but an LIP can't really - without looking aggressive!

I'm not sure it's necessary but mention it to your barrister.
 
My barrister has prepped me for my hearing tomorrow and it wasn't easy listening.

His view is that because the mother doesn't agree with any of Cafcass recommendations, the judge will disregard the s7 report, discharge cafcass and order we go to a final hearing with no interim contact order. He says the Cafcass mediation planned for tomorrow won't even happen, because as the ex agrees to nothing whatsoever, theres nothing to mediate on.

I could barely believe my ears. The kicker was that as this district judge has stated she wants to reside over the whole case, I'll be looking at next year for another hearing. He said he can try to argue it or request magistrates as they could be quicker but the judge will go against us. He feels the judge will say "it's too much too soon". I'm only asking for my daughter's to come for 4 days where I live with a gradual build up to half of the school holidays, plus my monthly weekend visits. The mother doesn't agree to them ever coming at all. This was the sole purpose of the section7, to find my daughters views on travelling with me to my home for a visit. Now they've confirmed they want that, my ex is point-blank refusing it.

So that means no chance whatsoever of my daughters coming to spend time with me this year, and I can only afford to go back and see them once a month for a weekend.

I don't know yet if she will continue letting me have the girls overnight on these weekends as she's stating bedtime and toilet problems with my youngest. I've also requested to extend my time with them by picking them up straight from school on a Friday rather than the evening from home, and I'm yet to know her response. Not sure what she'll object to but I wouldn't be surprised if she tells me I'm not allowed to set foot onto the school premises as "no one feels comfortable in your presence", or that she has to spend time with the children before I do.

The judge refused to give me an interim order at the last hearing, stating it was unnecessary as I already am having monthly contact and praised the mother for allowing this.
Barrister thinks it will be the same again.
Ex has already stated in her position statement that whilst she will "try" to get the kids to speak to me, even with an order it "won't work" as she can't force them. That means I'll continue to have no contact with my kids for 4 weeks at a time in-between visits.
Without Cafcass's involvement, who were planning to assist mum and the kids to have telephone contact with me, I'm back to the prospect of radio silence every month.

I'm so worried that the fragile bit of contact I've worked so hard to obtain with my daughters really hangs in the balance now, as the ex's vendetta against me is going to be massively reinforced by the judge and will only motivate her further to ramp up the pressure on the kids and the obstruction and hostility towards me.

I know everyone says trust the process but I'm struggling with that today.
Later I'll be going to stand in a queue outside an airport for the next 3/4 hours in a heatwave, I'll travel 1000km return and have spent £6k on just this hearing to most likely be in and out of court in less than 30 minutes coming away worse off than I am now and witness my smug, sanctimonious ex, who claims I have no interest in my kids, gurning at me in her victory.

I'm supposed to see my daughters after court but I've already had 2 emails from the ex which make noises I won't have them. The first cited covid but that seems to have gone by the wayside now, and the second in which she won't give me a pick up time as she "wants to spend some time with them first after court". I haven't seen them for 4 weeks.

The thought of not getting this family assistance order means any and all hope of anything improving while I wait for a court order has evaporated. Without Cafcass there to "advise" the mother on how not to be completely obstructive, nothing will change and will probably get worse.

It also means my son wont get the help he so desperately needs and nor will I be getting support to help him and I possibly reconnect via Cafcass involvement.

I can't believe that she could push for this section7, then get away with firstly trying to manipulate the Cafcass officer, secondly, completely slate the report, and thirdly, block every single one of Cafcass's recommendations.

Does anyone have any words of hope whatsoever for me? My barrister has 35 years experience, and he seems adamant that this is how it will go and that I have to play nice and suck it up.

To top it off, I accidentally gave my barrister the wrong date for court by one day (typo caused by stress I guess). Fortunately he's still available, but having to change bookings for a very expensive hotel. All I need now is for my flight to be cancelled and I don't even make it there. (This is anxiety-induced catastrophizing I know!).

Sorry this post is so negative and a bit of a pointless rant. Struggling right now to see daylight in my case.

Thanks for all the continued support, I may have completely lost my head by now without it!
 
Hobnob: you have my own insight from elsewhere, not that it helps other than the sense you are not alone in these actions.

I am convinced CAFCASS would be first through the court door if either of us had the temerity to reject their professional recommendations.

I am thinking and hoping for you. It will be incredibly hard to do this mate, but please preserve your dignity throughout.

SS.
 
Hi Hobnob. That sounds like crushing news and I wouldn't accept that either. Agree with StayStrong that Cafcass wouldn't be impressed with that - and neither would a good Judge.

Which brings me to the Judge. If it's the same Judge taking the case, that was so unhelpful and negative before, that isn't good. I need to do some research. I once enquired about avoiding a particular Judge and how to get a different one - I'll check my notes - I seem to remember it wasn't easy or definite but there was a way.

And then brings me to your Barrister. I have had different experiences with Barristers. I've had one very very good one, who yes would sometimes paint the worst case scenario (ie not commit to achieving much) but would then put his all into it and get a good result. I trusted him completely and he always did a very good job and got the Judge to listen and do what he wanted - even the particularly flakey stroppy Judge.

I've also had a barrister - who cost the same amount of money and with many years of experience - who was completely useless, and frankly did quite a bit of harm just by being too passive. That was when the usual guy wasn't available and I couldn't face adjourning the hearing (it had already been adjourned once). That was a big mistake - I'd have been better adjourning and waiting for the good guy. I had bad vibes about the other guy as soon as talking to him as he seemed so vague and his attitude was a bit "know it all". My gut instincts were right. He did xxxxx all at the hearing - in fact he might as well have been acting for the other side. It wasn't what he did, it was what he didn't do. to be fair he didn't know the case or the history. But actually no - he should have knuckled down and read all the stuff I sent him. I ended up doing my own position statement at the last minute when he said one wasn't necessary. That was the only thing that saved the hearing from complete disaster - it was a good position statement and the Judge was in agreement with it.

Anyway won't rant on. All I'm saying is - Barristers can vary hugely. This one sounds expensive. But it's more about who they are, what their stance is - what kind of cases they have won before - all that kind of thing is often in their bios and you can actually look up the cases. You can see how many times they've acted for a Dad and how many times for a Mum, and who they've won cases for. You can see if they have a sound reputation if they're in the Legal 500 (ie read the review of them which is often short but says a lot in a nutshell).

I think you need a more feisty barrister. He "might" be correct - but it is all negative and not proactive. It doesn't sound like he is really wanting to fight your corner, but that he is being a bit dismissive and possibly lazy? Or that he is just not experienced enough to know how to deal with this situation.

My disaster of a barrister also had 35 years of experince and claimed all sorts on his bio - most of which was vague - not many cases published. He was a barrister who had formerly been a solicitor. I thought that might be good - he'd know the ropes on both angles. Nope - it was the opposite. He had all the bad habits of solicitors! And not the years of experience of a Barrister who had trained as a Barrister from the outset.

So that always puts me off solicitor turned Barrister types.

If this was a medical situation, you'd maybe be asking for a second opinion.

How far away is the next hearing? I would want to hear someone being proactive and letting you know how to fight this. Ok so maybe he is correct that it would just go to a final hearing and that could be x months away (that sounds far too long though - next year).

But as StayStrong said - I can't see Cafcass accepting that. And if the Judge still sides with the Mother and ignores Cafcass then it's a fiasco.

I think in some ways, the distance has made Cafcass too cautious (and narrow minded!). If you lived 10 miles away I am sure they would have recommended more time.

But your ex is playing the system, causing delays. And the Judge sounds biased. You don't really want that Judge again do you? And if you did have to have that Judge again, you need a very good barrister who would sway her. Judges sometimes have to go with a Barrister when they present certain caselaw. I can see my good Barrister would be up there saying - but Maam this man can't even see his own children! There are no welfare issues - this case is a paradigm - why shouldn't he see his children? The Mother is being obstructive.

That kind of thing.

If it carries on like this it could disappear into the "intractible" category and my feeling about "intractible" is it is caused by delays and woolly vague reports with no-one committing to anything,

I think I would be wanting a Barrister to say to the Judge - why is the Mother rejecting the idea of a family assistance order? She clearly doesn't support the childrens relationships with the Father and it's the childrens welfare that is paramount - Cafcass could ensure that.

As I said I'm going to go off and do a bit of research - I know very little about family assistance orders and the criteria. All I've heard before is, if Cafcass recommends it, the Judge usually orders it.

This was the same barrister who was negative about it being unlikely a family assistance order would happen due to manpower etc wasn't it?

I don't like the sound of that. Whether he is correct or not, he is not helping - it sounds passive. Can you PM me his name? So I can check him out a bit? No reason not to switch barristers - sometimes it's hard but if you get the right person .....
 
The good barrister I had was recommended by another Dad who had used him by the way. On an older forum. I asked for recommendations and a few Dads gave me names. It can be the way to go - recommendation. Otherwise it can be a lottery.
 
Ok, from what I can see, your Barrister is correct, that if the ex won't agree to a family assistance order then it can't be made. It needs both parents to agree to it apparently. And yes then it would go straight to a final hearing. Which normally would be a good thing - it's the chance to present evidence, prove things, have the ex shown up completely under cross examination, and get the order.

The not good thing would be if it really would not be until next year and if the same Judge is presiding.

I was wondering if you could ask for a Guardian Ad Litem to be appointed instead. Some information below on that. Note it's an older website so uses "Contact" and "Residence" but the principle is the same. One of the reasons for appointing one is

"where there is an intractable dispute over residence or contact, including where all contact has ceased, or where there is irrational but implacable hostility to contact or where the child may be suffering harm associated with the contact dispute;"

Or

"where the proceedings concern more than one child and the welfare of the children is in conflict or one child is in a particularly disadvantaged position;"

Whether you would want that or not is another matter. It means the Children basically become party to the proceedings and the Guardian befriends them and represents their views to the court. They can even be appointed their own solicitor.

There is also this bit "There are occasions some courts choose to appoint a guardian so the children are made parties to a case where the prime reason is to allow an expert's report to be prepared with the children´s legal aid, thereby avoiding the cost to the parents."

I have heard of that last bit before - as it being a way to get legal aid for expert reports.

I'm sure you can see from all the above though, that that would not be a quick process. But it's a reason to have an interim order with a Guardian involved. With you living abroad though, it might not be workable.

I've read Judgements where a Guardian has been involved and the Judge relies on their evidence to decide what's best for the Children. As I've mentioned before though, Guardians are usually from Cafcass and even good ones can't seem to recommend a change of residency, and some sit on the fence. The NYAS also used to provide Guardians (supposed to be better) and that could be requested.

If it is the case that you have to wait six months for a final hearing (and that seems unthinkable to me - I know people are getting hearings quicker than that) then it's a case of staying strong - as Stay Strong says .........

And getting that order at the final hearing. Your children, however, will be older then. And that is a risk. That so much time goes by that the courts then say - they're teenagers - can't force them blah blah. How old is the youngest? Six months without an interim order is not good. You need that regular contact.

I would have thought a more robust Judge would have said if the Mother won't agree to the children going to stay with the Father then she'll have to share the cost of the travel.

Try not to be too despondent just yet. And don't give up.

Guardian ad Litem

www.thecustodyminefield.com www.thecustodyminefield.com

Personally - in these circumstances and with (I think) a couple of the children being older? Time is of the essence and it would be better to go straight to a final hearing and get an order, than to have more delays with a Guardian involved. It may also be that they will only appoint a Guardian if a first order isn't working.

Once you have an order - you're in a better position.

What location is the family court in? When is the next hearing? This next hearing is important.
 
Ash, some clarification since Hobnob is currently on his way to the Uk.

The Hearing is tmrw. The barrister can't be changed.

CAFCASS are not in attendance (!).

A Guardian will delay matters much much more.

If appointed, the children do have their 'own' solicitor, in reality this is only the legal mouthpiece of the Guardan.

Any expert reports ordered do not mean the parents are saved the cost. The cost is split three ways, 2 x parents, 1 x legal aid (by virtue of children joined to procedings).

NYAS are possibly worse than CAFCASS (yes, that is actually possible!).

The above is not hearsay, it is my reality.

SS.
 
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Thanks very much Stay Strong. So he needs to be briefing his Barrister to do his utmost to get an interim order and get the family assistance order ordered! From what I understand from a message the ex agreed to that.

Agree a Guardian would delay matters. Which is why I thought ultimately going to a final hearing the best option. It would be good if he could get the family assistance order meanwhile. Apparently the ex agreed to that (didn't know that when I posted above).

If hobnob can read this - I would say - instruct your barrister. Say to him - I would like you to try and get an interim order at this hearing - if Cafcass have recommended a family assistance order to monitor things and ensure the children spend time with me, then there is no reason not to have an interim order. Cafcass are not saying the children shouldn't see me. And ask him to push for the family assistance order.

That's what I would do anyway. He might or might not be able to achieve it. Although they are the experts and advise I've found when I asked a barrister to really try for something, he did. And got it. Along the way they also need to consider what is going to work for you. I said to him - I have to live with this situation on the ground, every day - leaving it like xyz isn't workable - I'd like you to try and get xyz out of it today. Although did say to me - well I can try but can't promise anything. Different situation - that was over prohibited steps. Good luck and keep us posted.
 
Good luck tomorrow- sounds like you are doing everything you possibly can to keep a relationship with your kids against a family court system that is broken. Chin up
 
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I can't thank everyone enough for all your words of advice and support. I had my directions hearing this morning and here's how it went down...

1. Cafcass didn't turn up and I got a different district judge who was about a hundred years old.

2. I went suited and booted and my barrister came into his own and controlled everything that unfolded. He basically told her what was going to happen and didn't give her a choice.

3. The other side arrived dressed for the beach not court, with the new boyfriend, equally scruffy and nothing in hand. No paperwork, no legal rep, only a stand-offish attitude and arrogance.

4. I'd already revised a new proposal for an interim order after receiving her vile position statement, which gave the mother her wishes that I increase time slowly in the UK before the kids come abroad with me next year. As she has limited my time with the kids so much already I couldn't risk not coming away with an interim order so had to back down on that part as she's completely digging her heels in.
However, in the interim order, I requested to increase my weekend time to include picking up my girls from school on Friday and drop back Sunday afternoon every month. A full week of the second week of this Christmas in the UK. The family assistance order to go ahead, weekly calls with the kids, a letter to my son within a week, counselling arranged asap and Cafcass to arrange supported meetings for him and I within the interim.

4. I refused her demands for nightly facetime at bedtime when the kids are with me, and said one call a week the same as I'm being offered by Cafcass.

5. Once the 6 months family assistance order is complete, Cafcass to submit their final report to the court by January and the court orders a full CAO without a hearing, which will be half of all holidays, mother bringing children to the airport, children spend court ordered time abroad with me, and my monthly weekends to continue. Cafcass to also make recommendations on my son being part of the full CAO if the supported meetings lead to unsupported meetings and successful time spent with me before January.
If there are any problems with the family assistance order it goes straight to final hearing in January.

6. The judge agreed with EVERYTHING I asked for and dismissed all of her objections and accusations. He told the mother that she HAS to follow the order or she'll be straight back to court within days and full costs awarded to me.
She said "what if X doesn't want to go with Dad from school" - the judge said "Dad will deal with that".
The barrister and the judge told her this IS happening and emphasised that they expect my sons rejection of me is to be dealt with quickly, not dragging on into long term therapy, no more than 3/4 sessions of counselling and his wrong beliefs of me should be corrected and nipped in the bud as a priority.

7. The judge also ordered I could have my kids today from 1pm until 2pm tomorrow and I'm currently on the beach with my girls !

8. When I went to collect the children there was none of her usual game playing bringing me 20 bags of teddies and duvets etc for an overnight stay, she actually packed them sunscreen and towels and beach stuff etc and handover was done in less than 4 minutes and I could actually close the car boot this time! Neither of my girls hesitated and ran excitedly to be with me! No standing there for 30 minutes trying to persuade my 10yr old daughter to come while mother stands watching smugly, and daughter regresses into 2 year old child who won't even look at me!

The barrister is writing up the order this afternoon and I'm absolutely over the moon. Everything lined up. I know I have to wait until next year to get my kids over to my home, but with a robust court order, I will be in a much better place to deal with her negativity towards the children. I'm not naive enough to think that she won't retaliate or try to derail this, but I have far more confidence now that she has to follow this order. When it's followed to the letter it will put me into a much stronger position to get my full order in the new year. I will have jumped through all the hoops and shown the court my commitment to the children and my cooperative approach. I know it's not done and dusted yet, but I am in a much better position today than I was yesterday and I couldn't be more grateful for that.

I know there will be consequences to this. She can still try to alienate the kids and manipulate them, try to sabotage the family assistance order somehow, but I really think she was shocked today. They've started to get the measure of her and she wasn't expecting that. She looked completely bewildered and it was all done in less than 20 minutes!

I had my doubts about the barrister, but he absolutely was worth every penny, obviously knew all the legal terms and handled both the judge and her like a pro.

Yesterday I wrote on here and I was almost ready to give up. It's not over yet but today is a pivotal day in this case and I am absolutely overjoyed that for once it's gone my way and I'm with my girls right now. I'm so happy I had to share it.

I have a way to go but I couldn't have got this far without the advice and information I learnt on this forum.

Thank you so much.
 
Hobnob, you've made my day and everyone else's (if I can be so bold to suggest that!).

HURRAH for you and your children, and for your persistence, dedication and commitment.

Now make it even better. Don't sit back, but equally don't be ebullient. As your situation sinks in you will see how you can make it really special, how you can continue to be the mega Dad you are and tick more boxes than there ever were in front of you.

But be ultra wary of CAFCASS, document everything re the Ex, keep your Barrister periodically in the loop and most of all relish your deserved Court endorsed responsibilities!

SS.
 
StayStrong said:
Hobnob, you've made my day and everyone else's (if I can be so bold to suggest that!).

HURRAH for you and your children, and for your persistence, dedication and commitment.

Now make it even better. Don't sit back, but equally don't be ebullient. As your situation sinks in you will see how you can make it really special, how you can continue to be the mega Dad you are and tick more boxes than there ever were in front of you.

But be ultra wary of CAFCASS, document everything re the Ex, keep your Barrister periodically in the loop and most of all relish your deserved Court endorsed responsibilities!

SS.
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Thanks so much mate, that's all brilliant advice I absolutely intend to follow. My barrister has told me to keep a dairy every single day without fail of anything and everything. My diary notes in emails to myself will capture every single event between now and getting a final order as I know there will be more resistance to come.

I absolutely will keep my barrister in the loop of anything significant, and as for Cafcass, that's the second no show at court in my case. Frustrating! But I shall keep it child focused with Cafcass and be whiter than white.

For now, I get to enjoy this moment with my girls, with more confidence than I've felt in so long. 🥰
 
great news and sounds as if common sense prevailed. enjoy your time with your daughters. many dads would have given up having to travel from abroad to deal with a difficult ex. all credit to you.
 
Brilliant news - very happy for you. And very pleased to hear your Barrister took control of the situation - and also that you had a different Judge. It is such pot luck sometimes. You get a good no nonsense Judge and it makes all the difference. What that Judge did was show your ex that the court sees you as a parent who deals with their own kids - and that she is not the only parent - that comment about "Dad will deal with that".

Great that you have an interim order - which absolutely is necessary and should have happened last time in my view. And it really does help having a barrister as Judge's listen to them more than LIP's (plus they know the legal bits to persuade the Judge with more authority). Helped also your ex wasn't represented.

Yes she will probably behave during the family assistance order, while everything is being monitored - either that or she'll try and manipulate the Cafcass officer - we shall have to see - but you're prepared for her trying things.

One thing I think as well - when your son finds out about this, it may help a lot. Once they see you've fought for them - and been given credibility by the courts, it can make them more confident.
 
I think the mention of "costs" has probably made her toe the line! Especially when you're paying a barrister :)
 
I think it absolutely has. I've already received one email from her in relation to the kids which was all, "Hi..." and "thanks". Personality transplant on the way out of court perhaps?

The first test will come tomorrow when I'm due to telephone my girls. After spending yesterday and today with them and having an amazing time together, it will be very telling if the first call is unanswered/declined, or the ex answers and the girls refuse to speak to me.
My barrister absolutely was worth his weight in gold. He sent the order over today and it's everything I'd asked for in the interim.
Celebration later when I've battled through airport chaos and get home to my wife !!
I'm sure I'll be updating on here and there'll be more drama, but for now I'm enjoying the relief of having that crushing weight on my chest I've been carrying all this time lifted and I feel lighter !
 
Ash said:
Brilliant news - very happy for you. And very pleased to hear your Barrister took control of the situation - and also that you had a different Judge. It is such pot luck sometimes. You get a good no nonsense Judge and it makes all the difference. What that Judge did was show your ex that the court sees you as a parent who deals with their own kids - and that she is not the only parent - that comment about "Dad will deal with that".

Great that you have an interim order - which absolutely is necessary and should have happened last time in my view. And it really does help having a barrister as Judge's listen to them more than LIP's (plus they know the legal bits to persuade the Judge with more authority). Helped also your ex wasn't represented.

Yes she will probably behave during the family assistance order, while everything is being monitored - either that or she'll try and manipulate the Cafcass officer - we shall have to see - but you're prepared for her trying things.

One thing I think as well - when your son finds out about this, it may help a lot. Once they see you've fought for them - and been given credibility by the courts, it can make them more confident.
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She tried to bleat that it wasn't fair that I had a barrister and she didn't ! My barrister said to her very gently, ok I understand, we can give you some time to look over this (interim order in the waiting room) and won't rush you into court until you're ready.... We got called in and BOOM, he completely railroaded her. It was priceless. Best money ever spent. He rode off on his motorbike 23 minutes later having just changed mine and the kids lives! It was like poetry. I'm still on a high sorry !! 😂
 
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Ash said:
I think the mention of "costs" has probably made her toe the line! Especially when you're paying a barrister :)
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I absolutely agree. Plus my costs to travel to the UK with car and accommodation etc, she's not that stupid I hope !
 
Really? The Judge said if she didn't comply she'd have to pay your travel and accommodation too? That's what's needed - leverage. They try and play Cafcass but if you get a good Judge who can see what's what ...........

Enjoy the high :). It's a great feeling I know. Still one step at a time but hopefully some happier times between now and January. And hopefully the Family Assistance Worker will help your son and you reunite.

If she's anything like my ex, she won't tell the kids what's happened (well obviously) she'll just start doing it - and they'll pick up that "Dad won in court".
 
Ash said:
Really? The Judge said if she didn't comply she'd have to pay your travel and accommodation too? That's what's needed - leverage. They try and play Cafcass but if you get a good Judge who can see what's what ...........

Enjoy the high :). It's a great feeling I know. Still one step at a time but hopefully some happier times between now and January. And hopefully the Family Assistance Worker will help your son and you reunite.

If she's anything like my ex, she won't tell the kids what's happened (well obviously) she'll just start doing it - and they'll pick up that "Dad won in court".
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Maybe I got that part wrong when he said costs, I assumed all of my costs.

She hasn't said anything to the kids because my youngest has been asking me constantly when she'll be coming to see me abroad. I've had to gently explain that it won't be this year and that daddy and mummy are having some help to arrange things for the future. She was so disappointed.
 
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