Of boys and men

[Kyle]

Of Boys and Men by Richard Reeves review – the descent of man

A thoughtful analysis of alarming evidence of a male malaise avoids the culture wars, arguing for structural and societal change

www.theguardian.com

Of Boys and Men: Why the modern male is struggling, why it matters, and what to do about it eBook : Reeves, Richard V.: Amazon.co.uk: Kindle Store

Of Boys and Men: Why the modern male is struggling, why it matters, and what to do about it eBook : Reeves, Richard V.: Amazon.co.uk: Kindle Store

www.amazon.co.uk

 

[Ash]

I was just thinking about this kind of thing tonight after watching the Apprentice on TV. Simba, the only male left in the process got fired. I could see it coming because it's usually the quieter polite ones that get fired. And of course he was criticised for not being more forceful and standing up to the loud mouthed talkative woman he was working with who was dominating things. He courteously avoided conflict. And I thought - he can't can he? Stand up to her, talk over her and be more forceful. Because there is this culture that all men are aggressive so they adopt this attitude of being peaceable and courteous and backing down. He actually did nothing wrong. He just avoided being discourteous to a woman.

Have you read the book Kyle?

 

[Peanut 21]

Back in our grandparents era life was simpler.
Men could be masculine and it was admired. Same for women being feminine.
Modern society taught women they can have it all which is a load of rubbish. You can't have a high flying career and be totally present as a mother. Then women were told you've got to be more like men to get anywhere, like on the Apprentice.
It blurs the lines of positive masculine and feminine qualities.
Men then get told they're inherently sexist and potentially abusers or rapists. What gets forgotten is the positive qualities of masculinity like the need to protect, providing and problem solving.
I know I've been in certain situations where I've been glad there's men around.
I'll look at the book later

 

[Roblox]

I'm early 40s and will admit a bit jaded by experience.

I've discussed this with a few similar men, I.e. similar stage of life etc. The best way I can describe is like there's two lives you live. The day to day reality that faces you, what you observe and how that makes you feel and then the public facade in the workplace etc.

 

[Roblox]

I read something recently about a term called 'quiet quitting'. I understand it relates primarily to the workplace where an employee does what is needed and doesn't go 'above or beyond' as they feel their contribution etc hasn't been recognised previously.

I think there's an argument a lot of men do this in various aspects of their lives. They don't like certain things (for example the stuff they have to suck up in order to gave time with their children) but then what is the alternative, to publicly complain and look 'weak' etc.

To be balanced about this I understand the day to day low level harassment women face and I wouldn't want to trade places with them. I

 

[Ash]

Back in our grandparents era life was simpler.
Men could be masculine and it was admired. Same for women being feminine.
Modern society taught women they can have it all which is a load of rubbish. You can't have a high flying career and be totally present as a mother. Then women were told you've got to be more like men to get anywhere, like on the Apprentice.
It blurs the lines of positive masculine and feminine qualities.
Men then get told they're inherently sexist and potentially abusers or rapists. What gets forgotten is the positive qualities of masculinity like the need to protect, providing and problem solving.
I know I've been in certain situations where I've been glad there's men around.
I'll look at the book later

I would go with that. It was simple - and people didn't get divorced very much either - virtually unheard of or hushed up. On the other hand my gran did nothing but cook and clean her whole life with no household appliances and never learned to drive. But then she seemed to think that was normal and her role in life.

 

[Ash]

I read something recently about a term called 'quiet quitting'. I understand it relates primarily to the workplace where an employee does what is needed and doesn't go 'above or beyond' as they feel their contribution etc hasn't been recognised previously.

I think there's an argument a lot of men do this in various aspects of their lives. They don't like certain things (for example the stuff they have to suck up in order to gave time with their children) but then what is the alternative, to publicly complain and look 'weak' etc.

To be balanced about this I understand the day to day low level harassment women face and I wouldn't want to trade places with them. I

It's all gone pear shaped hasn't it? Women want it all and end up with more harrassment. There is an argument though that that could be because men feel more emasculated. Huge generalisation I know.

The one thing I found emasculating, for a while, was being a single Dad with my ex dictating everything, and not having the power to make my son's life better. Getting a court order made things a lot better in that respect. On the other hand I then had to put up with abusive emails instead.

 

[Peanut 21]

I can honestly say that I don't think I've ever felt harassed to a degree it's effected my life.
When I was younger on nights out I remember drunk morons not getting the hint if me and my friends politely declined their advances. Or colleagues who were patronising. But I'm quite good at letting stuff go.
Women can be just as bad at being idiots. My only experiences with horrible colleagues were from other women.

 

[Roblox]

It's all gone pear shaped hasn't it? Women want it all and end up with more harrassment. There is an argument though that that could be because men feel more emasculated. Huge generalisation I know.

The one thing I found emasculating, for a while, was being a single Dad with my ex dictating everything, and not having the power to make my son's life better. Getting a court order made things a lot better in that respect. On the other hand I then had to put up with abusive emails instead.

It's a fair point around emasculation. Maybe it is our turn to suck it up a bit. I do think these things eventually sort themselves out as if women become more successful in the workplace for example it will surely follow that there needs to be more equality in the family courts etc when it comes to.child matters. I.e. you need equality in the family home to have it outside the family home. We are in very fast moving times in that regard.

I do also think there's some fuzzy thinking around 'having it all'. A level playing field is fine but then you play by those rules etc.

 

[Resolute]

It's a fair point around emasculation. Maybe it is our turn to suck it up a bit. I do think these things eventually sort themselves out as if women become more successful in the workplace for example it will surely follow that there needs to be more equality in the family courts etc when it comes to.child matters. I.e. you need equality in the family home to have it outside the family home. We are in very fast moving times in that regard.

I do also think there's some fuzzy thinking around 'having it all'. A level playing field is fine but then you play by those rules etc.

I tend to agree Roblox, parity in employment is definitely the flipside of parity in the home.

I also think that change in big areas can be generational. Kids in primary school now will be much more familiar with the idea of dads being hands on parents. They also won't be as burdened by gender restrictions as kids were in the 1990s (those in their 30s and 40s now). As they come up the generation in parliament, the police, and social services changes as well. We need to lay the path for change in my view, it may not happen until our kids come of age.

 

[Kyle]

I was just thinking about this kind of thing tonight after watching the Apprentice on TV. Simba, the only male left in the process got fired. I could see it coming because it's usually the quieter polite ones that get fired. And of course he was criticised for not being more forceful and standing up to the loud mouthed talkative woman he was working with who was dominating things. He courteously avoided conflict. And I thought - he can't can he? Stand up to her, talk over her and be more forceful. Because there is this culture that all men are aggressive so they adopt this attitude of being peaceable and courteous and backing down. He actually did nothing wrong. He just avoided being discourteous to a woman.

Have you read the book Kyle?

Just finished reading it after being recommended by a friend.

Masculinity, at a societal level, is on the verge of extinction because it's tied to gender, but as the Guardian article points out, its not a social construct like gender, that people seem to want to break free from these days. Masculinity is a product of biology not culture.

This leads me onto my next book, The Demise of Men. The Y chromosome is actually disappearing. The Y chromosome may be a symbol of masculinity, but it is becoming increasingly clear that it is anything but strong and enduring. Although it carries the "master switch" gene called SRY. (The SRY gene provides instructions for making a protein called the sex-determining region Y protein. This protein is involved in male-typical sex development). It determines whether an embryo will develop as male (XY) or female (XX), it contains very few other genes and is the only chromosome not necessary for life. Women, after all, manage just fine without one!

The Y chromosome has degenerated rapidly, leaving females with two perfectly normal X chromosomes, but males with an X and a rapidly shrinking Y.

If the same rate of degeneration continues, the Y chromosome has just a few million years before it disappears completely.

This leads me onto the third book, Future Humans: Inside the Science of Our Continuing Evolution. But this is getting way ahead of the current issues.

Men are not men anymore. Men don't seem to be allowed to be men anymore. If we try to be masculine, we are scolded for being misogynistic. But then when things go wrong and that need for masculinity is found to be the cause of a societal failure we are told were are not man enough!

Ultimately. Our existence isn't going to get any easier.

 

[Peanut 21]

What attracts me to men (obviously my partner) is masculine traits. I like his stereotypical male characteristics. Obviously sometimes they annoy me, like when he tries to solve my emotional rants, but we need to male/female contrasts. But I love his protective instincts and doing boring jobs men seem to enjoy
I pity future women losing good men.

 

[Kyle]

In the future, it will be women trying to solve men's emotional rants, as they won't know what they are anymore. But women will still be women with two XX chromosomes.