My Story - As it Happens

[MagicJ]

I noticed today the my initial SG report stated that

..no finding of fact is necessary..

Yet by the same token as allegations were suggested they also noted that:

..Allegations of Domestic Abuse have been raised, the court may need to consider Practice 12..

Subsequently the LA who ran the GK put out orders where they noted:

.. domestic abuse has been raised and the court should consider this when making its judgement..

Would I be correct in stating that if this is the Cafcass view, even though the GK orders are what they are, would the LA in the next hearing likely to order a FF or S7 if allegations were brought it would they see Cafcass weren't interested and just throw them out?

 

[Ash]

More ambiguities. Have you seen the actual Cafcass report?

 

[MagicJ]

More ambiguities. Have you seen the actual Cafcass report?

I took the two extracts from the actual report and the last one from the actual order

 

[MagicJ]

I noticed today the my initial SG report stated that

..no finding of fact is necessary..

Exact phrasing was

Practice Direction 12J is considered but the allegations of domestic abuse do not
prevent the children from safely spending time and therefore a Fact-Finding Hearing is not proportionate.

 

[Ash]

I'm sure your barrister will argue the relevant points

 

[Resolute]

PD 12j

"2
The purpose of this Practice Direction is to set out what the Family Court or the High Court is required to do in any case in which it is alleged or admitted, or there is other reason to believe, that the child or a party has experienced domestic abuse perpetrated by another party or that there is a risk of such abuse."

"14
The court must ascertain at the earliest opportunity, and record on the face of its order, whether domestic abuse is raised as an issue which is likely to be relevant to any decision of the court relating to the welfare of the child, and specifically whether the child and/or parent would be at risk of harm in the making of any child arrangements order."

I think lines 2 & 3 are respectfully highlighting that the decision lies with the court. Cafcass are clearly stating in their view DV is not an issue.

EDIT
I mean 2nd and 3rd lines you quoted

 

[Ash]

What you quoted above though Magic, clearly states there are no issues with seeing the children, and I'm sure your barrister will push that point.

 

[MagicJ]

What are the views on Bundle contention specifically case summary, is it usual in those cases for each party to submit their own Case Summary into the bundle?

 

[Resolute]

What are the views on Bundle contention specifically case summary, is it usual in those cases for each party to submit their own Case Summary into the bundle?

When I have challenged case summary. They have agreed to submit additional pages to the bundle.

EDIT
I wouldn't worry too much. Position/witness statements have provided much more of a basis than the bundle in my experience.

 

[Ash]

I think now you have a solicitor and barrister they will see you right, but I take the point that sometimes solicitors need instructing.

I would probably want to put my own case summary if the other side's one was skewed., But I thought it usually came from the previous order wording.

 

[MagicJ]

Thanks Both.

I've heard what I needed, that it's a small part of the overall picture & allowing them to submit their own is a small part of the overall process.

@Ash , I let my view be known and left it to them


Ta!

 

[MagicJ]

Hey All,

Back for some strategy advice, I've seen a few threads on WS which includes the sticky by @Resolute .

I'm not at FH nor a FF etc or but we've been ordered to do WS with limited time but unlimited pages which is pretty odd to say the least.

Its in front of a Magistrate and not the same person who sat the bench on the last hearing so I presume we're effectively starting from scratch.

My key focus is to keep it 100% child focused however a few key questions:

- no order for PS this time but presume we can submit one again?
- if this is not FH but we're doing WS, does it mean we're likely to do WS again for a FH?
- does the ordering of a WS mean this next hearing is likely to turn into a FH? ( it's only slated for 1hr)

My conundrum is in the vein of the one faced by Peanut21's partner earlier this year - do I drop all my powder on this WS or should I be keeping stuff back?

I've started to plan the WS with evidence examples, another question here, last hearing it was suggested evidence is from parents only - does this mean we're not to submit 3rd party statements?

Last point to throw in the mix, how can one evidence emotional support of a child beyond your own words?

Cheers

 

[Ash]

1) Yes you can do a brief position statement as well, just before the hearing
2) I don't know. I think it will just be the one witness statement though.
3) Again I don't know. It's possible but I think if it's only been listed for 1 hour it will be another directions hearing and a final hearing later. But they may want to try and get it settled at next hearing. Your barrister should have some influence here - he/she should help determine the outcome of whether to push for a final hearing later or push for the magistrates to make an order saying it means you can move out sooner or something. Something to discuss with the barrister.My conundrum is in the vein of the one faced by Peanut21's partner earlier this year - do I drop all my powder on this WS or should I be keeping stuff back?

My conundrum is in the vein of the one faced by Peanut21's partner earlier this year - do I drop all my powder on this WS or should I be keeping stuff back?

That was a bit different - they had a section 7 following witness statements I seem to remember. So it was a bit back to front. You will probably only get the one witness statement. However if there is a time period between witness statements and evidence being submitted, this means your ex, being aware of what's in your witness statement, may feel threatened by the possible outcome and put pressure on the girls. But as long as there is no section 7 ordered, there would be no benefit to your ex in doing that. So I would put your evidence in and argue your case.

I've started to plan the WS with evidence examples, another question here, last hearing it was suggested evidence is from parents only - does this mean we're not to submit 3rd party statements?

Probably - 3rd party statements aren't much help anyway as they can be seen to be biased. However documentary evidence from third parties (eg a ;letter from GP or school) is still evidence that can be attached.

Last point to throw in the mix, how can one evidence emotional support of a child beyond your own words?

I don't think you can really. Your own words could be persuasive though.

When choosing the evidence, and constructing a statement around it, it's good to think about what you're trying to achieve. ie if correspondence between you and the ex shows she is unreasonable or obstructive, that is your argument as to why there needs to be a clearly defined order because making arrangements is so difficult. ie what you're trying to achieve, obviously, is a good order, but showing reasons why an order is needed is part of that. So choose emails/texts that show your ex being unreasonable or obstructive. If it's a two way conversation, it helps if your messages are polite and reasonable. If they're not, don't use that particular conversation.

 

[Ash]

Length of statement. Even if no limit is on the order, keep it to 8 pages of double line spacing. That doesn't include the pages of evidence - those can be unlimited. Likewise if you can't fit in a full order request in detail within the 8 pages then at the end of the statement you can say I therefore request the court make an order as per the attached draft order. Instead of setting out what you want in the order at the end of the statement.

 

[Peanut 21]

Just spent ages trying to send you an edited copy of WS but I can't save it grrrrr.
Anyway, Ash right with what he says about my partners WS.
In hindsight there was no concerns about putting all his cards on the table because the courts just want to know what is going on from your point of view.

 

[MagicJ]

Thanks @Peanut 21 , appreciate you trying to send it.

I've taken the approach, in light of what you've said and what I've been told, that it is unlikely that further WS will be required post next hearing.

I also think, albeit the STBX will just submit a long list of complaints & allegations, given where we are in process, court will pick up as nonsense.
I will also take the approach that simple, concise & limited in pages is better - no MAGS on a 1HR hearing is going to pre-read lots of pages & appendices'

I'm going to get on with drafting the WS, as we all know, it's starting that is the hardest, once you get going and put pen to paper it's much easier.

Thanks.

 

[Ash]

A witness statement is your evidence basically. It needs to be carefully structured around the evidence you're using, and a bit of space for anything else you want to say (that is child focused). Solicitors are experts at drafting witness statements if you give them the evidence you want to use and any other information. It can be an idea to use a solicitor for this. I did that and the solicitor did the first draft and sent it to me asking me to check for accuracy and any other details she may have misunderstood. I was impressed by the clever wording. I then did a few amendments for accuracy and pointed out a few things and she did a further draft and asked me to add a bit in my own words. It went back and forth between us 3 or 4 times before being finalised.

 

[Ash]

There's a template here. But at this stage, the template is less important than the wording and content. The witness statement also needs a statement of truth at the end and to be signed and dated. You still need double line spacing and numbered paragraphs, but also sub headings to break things up. You could start with a "Background" heading. Then a current situation maybe, and explaining why things can't be arranged between you - showing various bits of evidence showing difficulty in reaching reasonable arrangements. You could have a heading for a certain specific thing that is an issue (again backed up with evidence). Towards the end you could write a bit describing things you do with the children, what you like doing together, wider family history etc. The end part is what you would like the court to otder = specifically. This can be set out as defined order wording or you can sau please see attached draft order.

 

[MagicJ]

After some advice on dealing with STBX.

With Christmas approaching, I had hoped to agree the holiday arrangements.

In mediation she agreed in principle to the kids spending the time with each of us, including Christmas & Boxing day with their paternal family but no actual routine.

In negotiations with Solicitors she's rejected anything beyond the term time schedule for the weekend and no statement on the week.

I'd prefer no drama so, had offered a 60/40 split that gave her time in one chunk and mine was split into 2 parts - Still no acceptance.

So what's the advice?

Given there's no orders at the moment, theoretically if I just 'tell' her this is my plan she will just do everything to be obtuse so a bit stuck.

 

[Resolute]

I had a relatively similar situation for Christmas 2020. It was a headache. In the end I did all of the Santa presents and shopping for a big family Christmas dinner. Involved the child in Christmas preparations. I did all the cooking, wrapping, cleaning... So the natural expectation was a normal Christmas in the family home. There were moments when you could cut the atmosphere with a knife. But, it would have taken some balls for my ex to rip the child away from Christmas going ahead as expected.