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Holiday dates agreed and not rescinded, but declines to give passport until night before

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TheDetective

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My DP discussed a summer holiday abroad with his ex earlier this year. She agreed and confirmed the dates before booking. It is all booked now.

The last court order made August 2021 includes equal division of all school holidays. Dates and times to be agreed between parents. He's been to court many times as mum has regularly breached, made accusations, etc etc. SD is 5, and the first court application was made when she was 8 months old. Currently things are okay, we've had no issues since last year and in fact she didn't breach this last Christmas for the first time meaning DP had his first Christmas eve/day with SD. So I was hopeful that she had finally been able to put SDs needs ahead of her own.

Now - to the issue. DP would like SDs passport so we have it for the travel agent who wants it scanning. We would also like it so we know it is in a safe place ready to travel. This is our first abroad holiday. We've only done UK holidays previously due to mums behaviour. However this time my dad is treating us all to the holiday. So we are obviously worried that she will ruin the family holiday due to her previous form.
Mum is refusing to hand the passport over until the night before holiday (when she says DP can collect my SD). She has just returned from holiday, so there is no genuine reason to refuse it. She isn't travelling anywhere. Both parents paid half towards the cost of the passport. We now travel in 5 weeks.
I have suggested to DP that instead of asking for the passport, that we ask to collect SD at a minimum the morning before we travel (so it has time to get to court before we fly if she refuses). But now I'm thinking maybe we should be more proactive by going to court if we can't get an agreement over the passport in the next week.

Also during the passport conversation tonight DP has also learned that SD is going to return from holiday with us at 4am (if not delayed!!!) and then fly back out later the same day to THE EXACT SAME DESTINATION! Mum has gone and booked a holiday last week without any discussion. DP knew she wanted to book another holiday but he didn't think she would do something like that!
I mean, why would you even do that?! It is stupid! If we get delayed then that is her holiday ruined, and the added stress on us at how she will punish us all if the flight was delayed (because she will). Also, poor SD is doing a 4 hour flight home followed by a 4 hour flight back to the same bloody Airport in the same day, with next to no sleep (she is 5!). Just why?!!!
So what should be the next steps beyond trying to negotiate with her?
 
You just know you are not going to get that passport on that day.

I would think you will need to get an urgent court hearing to demand its handed over, although my ex was told that and still ignored it with no comeback from the court.
 
What happened then? Did you get the cost of the holiday back? Literally what is the point in the court if they can't get the passport/child to you for the holiday? 😩
 
TheDetective said:
What happened then? Did you get the cost of the holiday back? Literally what is the point in the court if they can't get the passport/child to you for the holiday? 😩
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I was in a different situation, i had a holiday already booked for just me and my partner and all of a sudden i was successful in getting a change of residency and had my daughter live with me and my fiancée.

The childs passport was out of date, but of course having this out of date passport makes the job of a renewal a lot easier. I had to ask court for permission to take daughter on holiday as ex, of course, refused point blank to agree stating i was going to disappear and never be seen again, i was going to Spain!!

As social services were involved and had PR too, all due to my ex's behaviors, there was a court hearing, holiday was agreed and ex was ordered to hand my daughters lapsed passport back to the court by end of day. Of course she didn't hand it over and my solicitor lodged a contempt of court complaint. The ex in court actually demanded my daughter be put into stranger foster care and not go on holiday with us! Absolutely nothing came of it but it all went towards the pattern of her behavior and alienation.

In the end i got the brand new passport with no issues and myself and social services and the police had to brief border control as to when and where we were going because true to form on the day of the holiday the ex called police to make an allegation of child abduction to try and scupper the holiday by getting us stopped at passport control. Of course border control were already aware and again this went towards her pattern of behaviors.


This will happen to you if you do not legally get this passport sorted i can guarantee you. The fact that your ex is flying out to the same place within hours of you returning home shows this. What sort of a person would put a 5 year old through a traveling ordeal like this.

She will scupper your holiday last minute and give you the choice to either not go and lose your cash, or go without the child and no doubt tell the child you dumped them and didn't want to take them and tell the kid were going to the same place next week anyway and you will have e better time with mummy....
You can read this like a script.
 
Did she know your holiday dates and times before she booked hers? ie whose holiday was booked first?

I agree you should do an urgent specific issues application to get the passport handed over and the holiday ordered. For that you'll need confirmation of booking and payment for the holiday to go with the application. The emails showing the dates/holiday were agreed, and a short explanation that these holiday dates were agreed on x date as per attached email correspondence and DP has a holiday booked between x date and x date. He needs the passport so the travel agent can scan it for the booking and would like to have it in plenty of time before departing for the holiday anyway, but this is being refused. I'd also say that to prepare for travel and to make life easier for DD, he needs to collect her the day before travel and until x time x day to allow for return travel from the holiday.

Don't mention the ex's holiday at all. It's up to her to then respond saying she has a holiday the day you get back and wants DD back by a certain time.

If your holiday was booked first the court should order your holiday and she'll have to try and amend hers. What they would probably like to see is parents reaching a compromise. ie one of you offering to return a day early or setting off a day late. But plenty of time to discuss that after you've submitted your specific issues application.

Before the pandemic you could get an urgent hearing within 48 hours for a holiday about a week or two before the holiday. These days an urgent hearing could take a week. So I would submit the application next week (plus you need the passport now). Asking for the passport to be handed over within 2 days and then kept by DP until he returns from holiday.

That way, if she hasn't handed it over within 2 days you can apply for the court to retrieve it (there is a way I'm just not sure how)/. I know when I first had a specific issues application for a holiday - my ex had been witholding my son for 3 weeks! Because I had the holiday booked I got an urgent hearing and both sorted at the same time. I asked the solicitor what would happen if I turned up to collect him and she wouldn't let him come. I was told you can get an urgent same day order from the court for the Police to go and get him. So there is something that can be done. Main thing is you need that passport now - not in five weeks. And why not?
 
When ordering the dates for the holiday in the specific issues order, the court will put exact times and days - so ask for those to be from 9am the day before you depart on holiday until 9am the day after you return from holiday. If her holiday was booked later than yours and she actually is travelling the day you return, she will have to prove that. And if she booked hers second they will see it as intention to disrupt your holiday. And her own problem to change her flights/holiday dates.
 
She agreed and confirmed the dates before booking.
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Do you have this in writing? Text or email? That is needed for the specific issues application as then she doesn't have a leg to stand on.
 
Thank you, speedy reply as DP now filling in c100 - does he want a hearing within 48 hours? Or not? As we travel in 4 weeks.
 
I would put that yes. The court might not give you a hearing date for a week or two but it will be in time before the holiday.
 
When the dates were agreed were times included? Like 6pm Friday xth to 6pm Sunday xth? Not that it really matters. But basically holidays are court ordered with both parents, she agreed the dates in advance and is now causing issues at the end (and with the passport). Did she book her holiday after yours?

I'm just wondering, if she's going to the exact same place, if you could do a handover abroad lol! Before coming back. Probably not - because your flights are booked.

My ex has done this kind of thing a lot. Her thing was to book her holidays on my weeks and then say my son had to choose which holiday to go on! That didn't go well for her at the time.

The trouble is a specific issue can only deal with the holiday, not the whole order or any other amendments. Court fee is £232 now. You should be ok doing it yourselves. But application wording is important - and you can attach evidence (in fact you need to).

If you want me to look over order wording for 5b I've done it a few times :) . Doesn't want to be too brief. So put "please see attached sheet" in 5b and type it out on A4 in word.
 
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I'd email the court and say you're sending the documentary proof of the holiday booking in the post. Then photocopy anything you need to go with the application and put a covering letter in saying - "Please find enclosed, documentary evidence for Specific Issues Application re holiday booking from x name (Father). I would be very grateful if you could put this with the submitted application, which was done online, and would appreciate it if you could confirm it's received and with the application. Many thanks. Yours sincerely".

The more polite you are with court staff, the more helpful they are! If it was done online - do you know which court it was sent to? Was there enough space to write something? With it being an urgent application, you can almost write a bit of a position statement with it, rather than just the basics.
 
It was to Manchester. Would it not be better to send via email? Quicker, less chance of getting lost?
I feel like maybe he has done it all incorrectly now. He just wrote the facts of the case and what he wanted the court to do.
 
Ok, can you message me with the application wording he sent? You could possibly send an additional "statement" with the evidence. It's a good idea to email it and attach the evidence that way, but you might still need to post the original of the holiday booking (keeping a copy obviously). Although these days, so much of that is done online you might not even have an original paper copy. As with everything with the courts, evidence needs to be bona fide!

To send a PM on here, you just click on the avatar of the person you want to message and select "start conversation".
 
Or just email the stuff over to the court with a covering email. The two main things the Judge will need to see are: Email/text proof that the dates were agreed with the Mother. Proof of holiday booking and proof of payment (ie an email confirming booking paid for). And ideally something that requests they have the passport for scanning. I would also include a brief typewritten piece explaining the situation, what he would like the court to order (ie order the holiday dates from x time on x day until x time on x day) in a tone that is child focused and not criticizing the Mother. Keep it focused on what he wants ordering and why.

If the application is a bit minimal, it might take longer to get a hearing date. They are inundated wiht holiday applications in the summer! So it helps if yours stands out with clear documentary evidence.

Keep us posted!
 
I asked him for the wording he sent but he said he didn't save a copy 🙄.
He said he found out that he has to send evidence by post, so he has the text when he told her the dates we wanted to book and she said OK to them (the actual holiday was agreed verbally, but the texts show they are talking about a holiday abroad). Then have the paperwork for the holiday being booked which shows all our names on. My dad (who paid) has sent a photo of the payment invoice showing the balance paid. He will print that and send it too.
I'm really worried now that it won't be heard from what you've said. What do we do if it isn't? Will we lose all that money? I am so stressed right now. I knew this was going to happen and I've been hesitant about taking her abroad for this exact reason.
 
If the application is accepted they'll charge the fee. I don't think they charge the fee if the application isn't accepted. I don't see why it shouldn't be accepted if you post the evidence asap and put a short covering letter saying it's to go with the specific issues application in the name of (his name) submitted online on x date and please can they confirm receipt.

However I think you need to send more than just the proof of agreement and booking. Normally a kind of mini statement as well. Presumably he's put some details on the online application, so maybe wait for a hearing date and then submit a position statement instead of the mini statement.

Hope he marked it urgent 48 hearing. (Which these days could be a week or two). If there isn't anything in writing showing her agreement, then she could argue that it wasn't agreed. But hopefully you'll have enough there for it to be seen to have been agreed.

For the future though, with any Child Arrangements Order, anything agreed has to be agreed in writing - or it isn't classed as a bona fide agreement as part of the child Arrangements order. It can still be casual and informal, but can mean having to get confirmation from her by text or email - like "Just to confirm our discussion on Saturday about holiday dates and that my holiday will be x date to x date. Please can you confirm these dates are agreed".

Always best to do that in future. If she won't confirm then you know she's up to something. My ex used to be vague in her confirmation and say something like "sounds about right". Thinking that wasn't a clear agreement. But it is ha ha. Because she didn't so - no not agreed.

Hope it goes ok.
 
Got the court date through via email on Thursday. It is an in person hearing on 11th July. So plenty of time to sort any issues, thank goodness. He has a bailiffs questionnaire to send off tomorrow and then she will be served the papers.

On a similar topic, she still hasn't offered any dates for the summer (her statement was "I won't be dictated to" when he asked to pin down the rest of the dates!). The order is for 50/50 holidays. He is at a loss as to how to move forward with it. We are 3 weeks away from the holidays ffs! I've now lost any chance of getting my children booked in to clubs to allow my other half one on one time with her (I'll be at work for the other 4 weeks of the hols) as I can't afford to put them in on the chance she may be with us. It's £80 a pop just to give them a bit of daddy and daughter time (partner is a teacher so has my children for the holidays when I'm not off). Infuriating!
 
Great news. I think he should tell her which weeks you're having, as she won't commit to any, explaining that his partner needs to know when to make arrangements for her children too. Then as part of your hearing, ask for all the summer weeks to be ordered. Technically they are only supposed to order the holiday dates, but when I presented evidence like your email from your ex, the Judge ordered the entire summer weeks. ie the weeks got agreed/ordered at court. Unfortunately, because it's only for the specific issue, you can't ask them to vary the order at the same time to defined weeks for the holidays in future, but it looks like that is what is needed at some point - asking for variation with clearly defined holiday weeks each year. Eg first half of summer holidays. Any changes to that needs to be requested and agreed in writing (ie if you decide not to agree to change weeks then you don't have to).
 
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