Final hearing

[afj]

Hey,

Just wondering if anyone on here has taken further action following a final hearing that they believe of having an unfair proceedings in family court?

I know this is a pretty broad and also risky topic. Obviously it is a motive that should be taken with much consideration and legal advice. But wondering if somebody has taken this route before? I believe the final order was made unfairly. Throughout the proceedings there is also statements of truth of false allegations which have been ignored when found as not being truthful.

I might sound like a bitter father with an order he's not happy with. I am bitter, but I am also a fantastic father and my case has focused more on historical disagreements between parents. I believe I have received a very unfair Family court process.

Anyone touched on anything similar - just trying to get my head around options. I understand and also note that I do know the brutal injustice that many of us have received through the family court system.

Thanks

 

[DW81]

You would need to post a detailed breakdown of the process and highlight which aspects you feel were 'unfair' and on what grounds.

Appealing is your main course of action, however it is difficult to succeed unless the judge has got it plainly wrong or did not follow due process.

It is a high bar to succeed on appeal but not impossible. All depends on the detail on what you allege has gone wrong.

Offer as much detail as possible and dads here can share our opinion.

 

[afj]

Thanks for your response. I have used the forum throughout my entire proceedings for both advice and perspective.

My process has been this;

Unsupervised informal arrangements made by mother. Common story of cancelling my time to spend with child got more frequent and false allegations to the police of kidnap. So i made my C100 in November 2021. Following this, informal unsupervised arrangements by her solicitor to keep to until the Court decide otherwise. December 2021 mother made application for non-molestation. Hearing for non-molestation Jan 4th 2022 - to which they listed it and merged onto FHDRA. Got served a 12 month non-molestation and Ordered supported in centre (3 hours a week). Fact finding in July 2022. Both parents found as verbally and emotionally abusive to only each other. Police disclosures side with me over (kidnap) and dismissed as false by police. Mother made false allegations of physical abuse since my application and on the fact finding - this was dismissed. Section7 done over a video call. Really, really bad. FCAdvisor made many allegations against me. Assumptions of childs possible mental health and that he would experience alienation from the mother whilst he grows up because of me. It was a 14 page 47 point annihilation of events of the separation. Nothing to do with me spending time with my child at all. Directions hearing I got supported community time for 12 hours a month. Final hearing Cafcass wouldn't comment on anything the mother had done throughout the process and focused only on myself. I've had three in depth glowing reports from the Centres the most recent they didn't even read. This one particularly detailed the community time together. Nobody gave any thought to what I would believe is the reason I applied to Family Court - to spend time with my child.

My boy was 7 months old when I applied. He's now 22 months.

I've just generalised my proceedings there. Obviously had a GP letter - nothing from that. Mother didn't admit to any of my allegations and the Court found her as being domestically abusive. I think the main confusion to me is that two parents have done the same and are equally loving to the child but the Court continue to hammer me and not focus on my relationship with him.

The final hearing was recently they have given a lives with order for mum and I was ordered a continuation of 12 hours a month, supported, through a contact centre in or out in the community until I apply to vary the order.

The hearing itself was extremely uncomfortable. The Cafcass advisor only spoke of my wrongdoings. In a really heavy way. Anything I would request or state was brushed aside and ignored. I asked them to read the documents detailing my relationship with my child and they said 'this just says what food you took, it means nothing'. It is more than that - it details everything I do with my child.

It was a heartbreaking experience and I am left very confused. Particularly as Cafcass have essentially alienated and also lied about my relationship with child in the past and also the future.

It certainly was very far from being a fair hearing.

I had requested a progressive Order to be made to spend time with my child. Starting with alternative weekends 6 hours and 9 hours. Moving to overnights in 6 months time for a longer weekend. All holidays split equally and in the future weekends would be friday evening - monday morning etc.

Can you appeal if you think it has just straight up been unfair?

 

[afj]

I will also say. However brutal the final decision and hearing was. I am determined to keep to the order and spending time with my son as he loves it. I believe there is quite a short period in being able to open possibilities to other options I could do for a chance at a better outcome. Which also raises my question of how long do people wait or think is appropriate to reapply to vary the order? Of course I think now... but I don't think thats the best and realistic option either. Are the court testing me for another year?

 

[StayStrong]

Thanks for your detail, I am sorry to read of your obvious pain.

My view is this: you have recently come out of an horrendous ordeal, you need to take time to regroup, reflect and reassure yourself. You will be stronger for doing so. In the meantime make happy memories and ensure your bond grows to your child in all that you do together. Let the 'rope' hang loose, don't do anything to interfere with it, because as sure as the sun rises the 'rope' will be used by the Ex. That's fine....just take assidious notes.

While 12 months at the age of 22 months may seem a long time to wait the infancy is to your favour. Apply again when you are refreshed and resolved.

I wish you good luck, SS.

 

[DW81]

Thanks for the further info.

The only thing that jumps out at me procedurally is whether you had the opportunity to cross examine the Cafcass officer at the final hearing and if you did whether this was executed effectively by you. As I understand it you had no counsel which in this kind of situation was almost certainly a disadvantage, though technically you should not be disadvantaged by being a LIP (litigant in person).

It sounds like Cafcass focused on the findings of conflict/domestic violence between the parties. You should have been given the opportunity to challenge these views. If you were given the opportunity but perhaps were not able to execute it appropriately/effectively, perhaps through lack of experience, emotions overflowing (being such personal and important matter to you), it is hard to see grounds for appeal.

If however, you were not given the opportunity to challenge the Cafcass views in an appropriate manner (oral cross examination), then there may be procedural error and grounds to appeal.

Again, far more detail would be needed to be able to have a clearer view of whether there are any grounds to appeal.

Did the judge offer a clear judgement addressing issues and explaining why they followed Cafcass recommendations and the reasons for the orders made?

Sorry but on the surface I dont really see any obvious substantive reason upon which a successful permission to appeal may be granted, let alone a successful appeal.

If you feel strongly that there has been a big error/unfairness in procedure then have a good read through the info in the link below and your first step would be to obtain the transcript of the hearing which would support and demonstrate the procedural error(s) you are objecting to. This can take weeks and applying to appeal has a 21 day time limitation, however this can be extended usually without much problem as long as you have strong enough grounds for appeal. Appeals have been allowed even months following the final hearing, though that is not the norm.

Appealing against a court decision in civil and family cases (EX340)

www.gov.uk

Might I add, you said that the order was made 'until you apply to vary it'. Was this expressed so by the judge? If so it plainly leaves the door open to you to reapply once things have settled down between you and your ex, allowing some time to pass if it appears to the court that things are too raw between you still, which may put the child at the risk of being exposed to such conflict.

Also the fact that you were not directed to partake in any domestic abuse program is a positive.

It really sounds to me that they felt things are a bit too raw between you and your ex right now and the child of course is very young.

That does not mean you should allow much time to pass by. Avoid conflict and minimise communication with your ex and 6-12 months ahead there is nothing stopping you making a further application to vary the order, addressing the issues which Cafcass and the court raised in this final hearing and you can demonstrate how they (risks) have been reduced/removed.

Main thing is keep things as amicable between you and your ex as possible. Bite your tongue, force yourself even to be polite, put yourself in a position to show the court that regardless of the past, at least from your side, there will only be a calm and polite response and you would never allow your child to be exposed to conflict or negativity. Give them no reason to worry about whatsoever and you will have the order you wish!

 

[afj]

Thanks for the response(s). I take on all advice.

Due to the non-molestation. Me and ex do not have any contact unless it is about sickness of our son or an issue via the contact centre - or if she wants to tell me she's taking him abroad. So conflict between parents sort of died down some time ago. Also as human nature heals you somewhat within these situations, and as you grow as a parent... hate and more hate overtime turns into pure confusion, disappointment and pain. You then really find perspective of how much your child needs you - which has been proven through many NACCC reviews. Particularly as our child is now of an age of verbalising (albeit little) and physically showing excitement for our time spent together, and then the disappointment of leaving our session together, etc.

I was acting LIP. Unfortunately I do not have the funds to be able to afford legal representation. This I know has been a huge disadvantage to me. Although I haven't tried to act as if I know Family law. I have done many many hours, days and weeks to be the best I can. Prior to all hearings I spend weeks to finalise my final documents. With that said I was so alienated and abused by my ex with false evidence that I thought Court would be more equal from early on. I then witnessed the power in which legal representation can be a huge advantage.

I have felt that the leverage the mother had over me by making false allegations from the beginning had so much negative impact. But court have not been worried about these even when proven on paper as quite simply 'a liar' and mudslinging. I even received false allegations on her final statements. But the Court didn't want to see my evidence to delete this. All my statements are is about being with my son.

I had told Cafcass about the bias' and inequality I felt I had received, particularly with their section7 report. All of my complaints which were made wasn't necessarily used against me, but very quickly looked over. I had obviously touched a nerve that they do not recommend female perpetrators of domestic abuse programmes to females. Yet although it currently does not exist - Cafcass mainly focused on putting me on the DAPP. To which I declined unless the mother was to undergo some DA course as we are both found equally of verbally and emotionally abusing each other. Court did not blink an eye at the mothers wrongdoings.

To note - the Court asked if I would attend a DAPP and I had declined this. It is not ordered to attend.

More importantly I wanted to highlight our son throughout and these were just ignored. Cafcass only wanted to speak of past historical events that I had made with Mother

I believe essentially I have just experienced what a lot of other people have to in Family Court. Even though I took the final hearing very emotionally in Court and the few days following it. I will find strength in keeping to having time with my son albeit restricted.

If I reapply to vary the order in say 6 months will I start from the beginning? E.g FHDRA and further hearings or will it be a hearing just to make a new order? Will I have the same judge too? I have found the judge as being pretty gutless and of course unfair.

thanks,

 

[Ash]

Spot on DW81 and excellent advice above.

I think the main confusion to me is that two parents have done the same and are equally loving to the child but the Court continue to hammer me and not focus on my relationship with him.

Sadly the process isn't about equality. It doesn't matter how bad your ex has been to you, unless she is a danger to the child (eg seriously alcoholic or arrested due to dangerous behaviour while on drugs eg) the court (and cafcass in particular) will always leave the child with the Mother. So it then comes down to - is it ok for Dad to see the child too? It's why it's usually recommended not to make allegations against the Mother, even if true - because it does not help the end result and can actually harm the end result. As mentioned above, if both of you make allegations, then it's classed as conflict between parents. Cafcass decide the conflict is harmful for the child and they are always going to leave the child with the Mother. So they minimise time with Dad to avoid the conflict.

Understanding the psychology behind their decisions can help. It's understandable to want to defend yourself against false allegations by pointing out her own abusive behaviour but it doesn't quite work like that. They just see it as conflict between parents.

For the future the best thing is to - never say anything negative about the ex. In fact even find something positive to say about her. The relationship is over - it's about separate lives and finding a way to coparent amicably at a distance (even if you have to pretend to be amicable). Detach from who she is and pretend you're dealing with a business colleague, so polite, respectful communications. It actually helps detaching from who they are anyway.

It is positive it's left open for you to apply to vary, because one advantage of this system is they don't really look at previous evidence. Cafcass however will look to see if there were previous applications.

Here's an irony. My first order was not worth the paper it was written on. Cafcass wrote the order! At my next application a year later, Cafcass commented that the previous order was very bad (not those exact words) and did neither party any favours. Cafcass officers are individuals - they can vary hugely.

I am wondering why the Cafcass officer was even at your final hearing. Unless you asked for her to be there so you could cross examine her. Presumably a tactic pulled by the other side.

It sounds to me like the Judge decided he couldn't go against the Cafcass recommendations as he didn't have enough to contradict them - but left it open for you to reapply.

I would apply to vary within 6 months. It will be at least a year before it's finalised.

Come on here before you submit your application. Even without a lawyer, it can really help to have an objective eye over everything you write, because it's hard not to sound criticial of the ex in our language sometimes, and things can be carefully rephrased to make your points, and hint at issues, without being directly criticial of her.

Also be aware that ANYTHING you put in writing - texts, emails etc - can be used as evidence against you (and also for you). Always show you are the reasonable one in communications - don't get into any arguments or let her push your buttons and retaliate. I know you said there is very little communication anyway due to the NMO.

The point being - Cafcass took against you - because you were hostile to the Mother and the Mother is the main carer and the child might pick up that hostility. Regardless of whether your allegations were true, Cafcass see that as hostility towards the Mother. No it's not fair - she can be outrageously hostile and it's ignored - or classed as "Mother anxiety" or even just accepted she is hostile. But a Dad has to be seen as whiter than white.

 

[Ash]

Your child is still under the age of two and there are many Dads who get limited to a few hours a week until the child is over two years old (although usually not supervised). That has changed for the better in recent years in that some Dads are getting more time and overnights, despite the child being under two. But the two years old thing is because the Mother can technically breast feed up to the age of two.

It can help if you understand how Cafcass view things. Firstly they (technically) look at the welfare of the child. Secondly they are intrinsically biased towards "Mother knows best" as part of their social work training. The time they can really turn against a Dad is if he applies for residency - then they gang up. There are many Cafcass officers who are very fair and not biased.

But to Cafcass - if the child is in the middle of this aggressive war between parents (as they will see it) then it's not in the child's best interests to be caught in the crossfire - and pick up on all that negativity and hostility.

It isn't fair but the Mother can do no wrong (usually) and Dad has to be perfect. If you know that's how they view things, it can help to negotiate a very strange system.

It is a shock to many Dads to find - you are not equal parents at all. It's wrong. There are widowed and single Dads who bring children up perfectly well and there are some very bad Mothers. But the best you can do is get as much time as possible, keep things as amicable as possible, at a distance, with the ex. And focus on positive times with the child.

You should have a lot of positive reports from the contact centre before you reapply.

 

[afj]

Thank you Ash and DW81.

Some of the parts I have already seen you write of advice to many other parents on here in similar positions. It does really get to the point when it is your own case. It's also a little crap because you read advice like this and think "oh yeah of course do that". But the reality of going through mentally what I (we) have done for twelve months already - I have done a solid twelve months of attending every week of spending time with my son for just 3 hours every other week at times. It is incredibly heartbreaking and feels like your fight is not worth it anymore with what is supposed to be a fair justice outcome. The implications of holding down a job to continue at a centre along with many other issues - you get through to keep spending time with your child. It is so difficult. Particularly when you have NACCC workers saying the most incredible things about your time with our children. Cafcass has simply sat behind a computer for twelve months, and in my case spoke to me for just two hours on the internet, and can say "no time to be spent with dad, unless in centre".

The court actually Ordered Cafcass to attend - it wasn't my request. I had certainly verbalised that I did not agree with their section7. Also at the final hearing I understood how much Cafcass and Court are as thick as thieves (in my case). They had lunch together and any questions I asked Court they simply turned to Cafcass for a response. It was really uncomfortable. Of Course the mother has agreed with Cafcass since the safeguarding letter to court on day one. So onwards the mother simply says I agree with Cafcass on their outcome.

I will continue what i believe "is in the best interest" of my boy. Continue time together every other weekend in the restrictions of a NACCC. Will gain more perspective of the family system and simply by the end or my reapplication to vary the order I will have more impact for my son to be with me more often - which he deserves and is safe with.

One more question, do you know if the same FCA will continue throughout my proceedings - I truly hope not. But also understand Court and Cafcass are kind of stuck together within the same regions....

 

[Ash]

I think it's unlikely you'd get the same Cafcass officer, but it's possible. That has happened to me before (ie got the rottweiler again). However if that happens you can say you want a different Cafcass officer. You are unlikely to get the same Judge again - but it's possible. There are some quirks as well. In my area there is a small court - and a very large court only 15 minutes further away. The large court has many many more family Judges. The small court only has one. I applied to the large court for that very reason. My ex managed to get one hearing moved to the small court because she sussed the only family Judge was a bit wishy washy. She claimed distress and extra travelling. There are so many hoops to jump through and machievellian tactics that you need to be a step ahead the whole time. Be prepared for these things and pre-empt them. There is nothing fair about it and someone is usually disappointed - often both parents. Ideally both parents really want their child all to themselves - but have to accept sharing the care and having a part time family life. Which is why it's understandable why Mothers fight so hard to have as normal a life as possible without too much dealing with the Dad and without the child being away so much. Understandable, but selfish.

what is supposed to be a fair justice outcome

It's not about justice unfortunately. It's a family court and it's supposed to be purely about the best interests of the child. The law says - children have a right to a significant and regular time with both parents - if it is safe to do so. So a Dad needs to be seen as safe and positive about co parenting with the Mother. If one parent does that, even if the other doesn't, they look more positively at things.

I can understand how devastated you feel - but - maybe try to look at the positives. It is not a "no contact" order (they do happen). It is not a "indirect contact only" order (they happen too). It is an order to see your child fortnightly supervised and keep up the relationship, with an option to apply to vary. The Judge will know contact centre isn't a permanent option.

Do some nice stuff to relax and cheer yourself up as it can leave you feeling bad after all the process and tension. When you start to feel a bit better and can regroup a bit - you'll feel more positive. Try not to think about the timescale but focus on the present and the time will pass. Have a holiday or week-end break if you can. This isn't a win for your ex - she was probably trying to erase you completely and that hasn't happened. You are important to your child. Think to the future.

 

[Ash]

When the child is a bit older, it's easier to see the perspective. You realise, when they're older, that they love both parents totally - however bad they are. All they want is peace.

 

[afj]

Nice Ash,

I have of course found strength this morning by emailing new centres for these new orders to continue to spend time with my son immediately.

I am still coming to terms with the family court system, but as time goes on I find a weird stability that it can be just simply savage and brutal. You then question your own actions by applying for this, also your positions and actions throughout the proceedings. But the reality soon follows that if I did not do this now then I would be doing it in years to come. I am also very proud of what I have done in the last 14 months to continue spending time with my son - even though the court wont react to these particular positives and ignored. I will at some point have the order that is fair for both parents and child.

But your words definitely brings reality of people going through it too. So thanks, I'll take the advice and reapply in six months with an even stronger result in keeping to Orders under brutal directions.

 

[Ash]

And you absolutely should be proud of yourself. You have done nothing wrong. It's just an uphill climb for a Dad, especially with a very young child. It is not normal life in the slightest. There is nothing normal about it at all. Really it should all be a lot simpler and then there would be less conflict between parents anyway - because they're not put in a position of having to fight over child time. There should be a legal precedent of equal shared care - then everyone knows where they are. The child does not "belong" to the Mother. The child belongs to both of you. Some things are still very archaic in the court process. But - however brutal it is - I do think we learn things along the way, and however much of a horrific ordeal it's been - yes it can make you stronger. You've been dealt a crap hand - but you have a chance to change things. I really feel for you having to keep going to a contact centre. It's ridiculous. But at least you can see your child.

 

[afj]

Thanks for the words and advice!