Guest viewing is limited

Desperate for Help

StressedDad

New member
Member
Hi Everyone,

First, I want to thank anyone that takes the time to read this and/or provide advice... at my wits end and really need some help in how best to move forward.

I live in Scotland so if advice is tailored to that I'd be extremely grateful (sorry, not entirely sure if it's vastly different to English Law).

I'll try to summarise my story so far.

I've been separated from my ex for about 3 and a half years, my daughter is now 4 years old. It wasnt a very healthy relationship on reflection, my mental health suffered (and still is) significantly and I'm making absolutely no excuses but it led to an assault charge against me as I pushed her on once when we were together.

My family had told me several times before that I should leave etc before the mental abuse got to that point for me but obviously I didn't listen at the time.

After a drawn out process, I now get to see my daughter every weekend, alternate Christmas/New Years and for 2 non consecutive weeks during the year by court order. Initially my dad picked my daughter up but due to his ill health and with myself moving into my own home this is no longer going to be feasible long term (the pickup arrangements).

There have been continual issues over the course of the last 3.5 years where my ex is trying to remain in control of my life (yet saying I'm being controlling) that I have with my daughter.

I very rarely get informed of hospital/doctor appointments, nursery/schooling details and when I ask I'm shut down. Since getting my own place she has tried to dictate how I should collect my daughter, my ex and her new partner won't drop my daughter off at my own home, it has to be at my parents or my dad has to go and pick my daughter up.

Given my dads ill health this is no longer going to be a possibility but I don't drive; I mention that because on a couple of occassions I've arranged to pick up my daughter from a collection point not far from my exes house but on several occassions they say 'It's raining' or 'It's been raining so you can't take her and we'll drop her off at your parents (she gets her current partner to come up and tell me this).

The last two times my dad has been a bit better so has been waiting about 5 mins down the road and I've told them I'm getting a lift halfway but they still refuse to hand her over and say they'll drop her off at my parents - I just don't understand how they can dictate this? I've said I have a lift waiting? Also, they've said they dont want my daughter walking (about a mile and a half roughly) to my home so expect me to get some form of transport but I don't drive, and taxis are obviously additional costs (happy to pay but it's the principle really).

Also, how do they know I'm not planning on going to say another family members or taking my daughter to a close by restaurant for her dinner? I shouldn't have to tell them this should I?

Separate to that, I get her for 2 non consecutive weeks and alternate christmas/new year - I tried to politely arrange one of those weeks to be in the October holidays but she flat out refused and said the holiday time I get is in the Summer holidays - thats not the case, the court order states 'two non consecutive weeks during the school holidays each year' so now she is dictating which holiday term I can use my allotted time.

I've tried to negotiate and politely ask but it's always a no and she specifically said 'Your time is in the summer holidays'; we're now in June and I can't really negotiate my other week at any other time and to be quite honest I'm following the order and splitting the time over different periods; I am due to have my daughter a week monday for one of those weeks and now panicking she's going to withold her or cause trouble.

This is a regular occurrence and I feel she's trying everything she can to basically remove me from my daughters life - she's now said it'll have to be dealt with via solicitors, she seems to get legal aid and I imagine she will again whereas I don't so she knows it's a financial struggle for me not to mention the extreme impact it is having on my mental health; she keeps bad mouthing and insinuating I'm an abuser or that she's sick of me and can't wait til I'm out of her life

Trust me, I'd happily not interact with her but I'm trying to be an adult as the daughter we have together is most important - what she and her new partner also keep trying to do is mentioning they're thinking of my daughter's wellbeing etc, again insinuating I'm not by asking for one of my weeks to be in the October holidays.

There are other things and basically she is just not interested in negotiating or being reasonable and is continually obstructive but think I've rambled on enough,

I have tried to remain as polite and diplomatic as possible but it is just so difficult when it feels like she is getting away with dictating everything relating to when I see my daughter.

I now have to go back to my solicitor to move things forward which again will cost more money but if I'm going to pay out then I actually would prefer more contact with my daughter as I just can't go through this again every year. I don't know how likely it is that I could get residency given I've tried to be reasonable at every opportunity - I even allowed them to have my daughter for longer than stipulated on the court order at christmas but I get nothing like that in return.

A couple of other potentially relevant points:

She's had 3 previous children removed from her custody in the past (not sure exactly why but related to poor care or something)
I'm not certain she declared her partners income on the initial legal aid application and doubt she'll do so on the next claim
I'm not certain she has declared her partner has been living with her (for about 3 years) to council for council tax/rent
I'm not certain she's declared her partners income on universal credit claims
Her partner in conversation with my mum had said he was working 60 hour weeks - how on earth would she get legal aid or full benefits if he's working those hours?

I say not certain as when we were together she didnt declare i lived in the property when we were together (it was reported and we paid the arrears) so I'm assuming she's doing the same now

Being all nice hasn't really helped me and if anything she gets to be unreasonable and obstructive but if I were like that I feel I'd never get to see my daughter! I think the time to be calculated and strategic is now here but I don't know where to start. I have collated evidence of her behaviour such as texts and also recorded the refusal to hand my daughter over the other day but not sure if I should do more of that?

Sorry this is so long - and it's not even the half of how manipulative she has been
 
Hi. Sorry to hear this. I also have a disruptive dictating ex doesn't play fair. To answer one question, no I don't think you'd get residency and the family court wouldn't be interested in any dubious financial situations of hers either - and it would be hard to prove. You could report her anonymously to the benefits agency or something but I wouldn't advise it - she'd know it was you and things would become more hostile.

She'd have to do something very bad for residency to be transferred and you'd need evidence she was a risk to the child - or she'd have to be preventing any time with the child. It also won't look good if you start trying to paint her in a bad light and dredge up her history (although it's concerning and keep an eye on things).

It's a nightmare when court orders aren't worded well enough to avoid ambiguities and she can interpret it as she wants. It seems quite clear that two non consecutive weeks in the school holidays could be ANY of the school holidays. But - it doesn't specifically say that so she has interpreted it as the summer holidays. It's a case of either accepting that or asking for variation to get the wording better. As you're having difficulty with handovers as well it does sound like there needs to be something more specific. But the courts can also be impatient wiht parents returnng over minor disagreements. It's not actually minor but they think - surely you can agree handover location etc.

Don't vary from the order - so don't let them have more time at Christmas again. Keep everything in writing so if you agree to change times like that at Christmas, say it's on the basis that this is an exchange of time (or it'll be seen you've agreed to having less time).

I am not that up on the Scottish system but can link some info. As I understand it, more can be done via solicitors in Scotland (ie formal agreements and variations without a return to court).

Although it's nauseating being nice to someone who is being like this, you do it for your daughter - to avoid conflict - and also for yourself - so if you ever have any major problems, you have evidence that you were the polite reasonable one - that helps a lot. After all what alternative is there? If you get stroppy she'll just be even more difficult.

I understand it's not good - but I can say that - it could be much worse! So it helps to keep a perspective while also wanting to sort things out. So the issues are:

Handovers and which weeks of holiday. Is that right? I think those things need to be formalised. The Dad is usually expected to do the collections and drop offs, unless the order says otherwise. They are prepared to drop her off at your parents but not at your house? That seems strange.

I can't see solicitors managing to reach ageeement for variation to the order wording, if she is not inclined to agree. Two weeks holiday a year isn't very much.

I would suggest getting some legal advice (can you get a free half hour?) and asking about having defined holiday weeks each year - eg a full half term, two weeks in the summer and a week at Christmas with Christmas Day on alternate years (or would you want half the school holidays?) And for changoevers to be more defined in that they should drop your daughter off at your house.

I can understand them not wanting her to walk over a mile or stand in the rain. Can you think of a particularly good location for handovers that is under cover, that you can get to, and ask for that to be a specific location in the order?
 
Hi, thanks for your reply.

Yeah it’s beyond stressful if I’m honest, I just want to see my daughter regularly without some sort of drama every time.

When you say something very bad, what types of things would constitute that?

In terms of the financial situations, I wouldn’t tip off anyone but I know someone who will completely removed from myself and it’s never been mentioned to my ex by me so kind of safe in that respect.

Yeah the court order is very vague but I thought this was just what courts did as they’d ‘expect’ us to be reasonable with each other. She is just not interested in being reasonable and I’m certain her end game is to get me out of my daughters life.

I get it’s her interpretation but how can she get away with this? If I did the same wouldn’t I be in serious trouble?

I was hoping that as I’m being reasonable, if it went back to court then she’d be seen as unreasonable and be more likely to side with me as I’ve really tried?

In terms of the handover, I literally can’t do anything as she (well her partner) refuses to hand my daughter over; rather than dropping off at my parents house, can I ask they drop her off at my own home?

The whole collection by my dad or drop off at their house was originally around the fact she was claiming she was scared for her life around me etc but it’s now been over 3 years and she drives the car to my parents (sits in the car) and her partner hands over my daughter; she has interacted with me on several occasions but even then surely it would be reasonable for her to drop my daughter at my home if her partner is actually doing the handover as it’s just not reasonable for many more years to have either my dad pick her up or they drop off at my parents?

I get understanding not wanting to walk over a mile in the rain but it wasn’t raining (pedantics I know) but in terms of specific location, could it be a restaurant close by as once the handover is done surely it’s none of their business what the onward journey would be?

In saying that, I guess at my home would be better but I’m worried she tries to claim the ‘scared for her life’ card again (even though it’s her partner that usually actually drops off/picks up with my ex in the car)

My solicitor has been trying the polite friendly approach rather than a bit firmer and it’s getting nowhere yet I’m obviously paying out more money; should he be firmer with the request clearly stating what the order advises?

I’d rather avoid court for obvious reasons but I feel we’re getting nowhere.

No I guarantee she would not be interested or entertain mediation at all, but I don’t know whether I should write a letter/send a text clearly suggesting mediation so it can be shown I tried everything?

I feel being the polite reasonable one is getting me nowhere when she can send abusive messages to me and post mentally abusing stuff on FB (granted doesn’t specifically state me, but it is) and she is getting everything she wants yet as soon as I would step out of line I’d probably never get to see my daughter again.

How do I get the court to see all this without sounding like it’s about me and her – it genuinely isn’t, I just want hassle free contact with my daughter, I’m terrified I go to court and they hear all this but decide my daughter just stays with my ex and I have no involvement and essentially then she wins!

I did think the contact I have was very limited, how do I go about requesting more without looking selfish and thinking of myself (like my ex is going to say)? Could I use her current behaviour and unwillingness to negotiate as a positive to gaining more access to my daughter?

What sort of options are there, I know you mentioned holiday time etc but if you were able to lay it out as an example that would be a massive help as I’m not very good with this and I’d be so grateful!
 
Yes invite her to mediation. Let her decline. She'll probably say it's not suitable due to past DV (in her way of looking at things). What are the messages on Facebook? If they are about you even if not directly mentioning you, then screenshot them, then contact Facebook with a complaint and ask them to take down these messages.

"I just want hassle free contact with my daughter". Yes I get that - and so you should - it's the disruption and stress that is unnecessary. My experience is a disruptive ex will always be disruptive (and yes they hope you get sick of it and give up) but that's why a court order needs to be very tightly worded so there's no wriggle room. It's not selfish to want more time with your daughter - everything is looked at as in the child's best interests and it's in the child's best interests to have regular and significant time with both parents - so she is able to have proper relationships with both. That time can either be agreed between parents or determined by the court. In England "half the school holidays" is standard.

I think if this isn't going anywhere then you don't want to keep wasting money on solicitors letters - unless your solicitor can get something formally agreed about handovers. Your solicitor needs to put forward a proposal, for their agreement and if they don't agree then I think you need to return to court. And yes that is a load more hassle.

We Dads can be in awful situations, - a rock and a hard place - put up with the constant stress and aggro, or have the stress of returning to court.

You would want to be asking for a defined order (the terminology may be different in Scotland - that link should help) and handover arrangements that are workable and suitable for the child ordered.

What does the court order say about handovers? Anything or nothing? Is your daughter at school? In which case changeovers at school better so both parents aren't there.

Courts do sometimes make the first order a bit vague hoping parents will be sensible and reasonable and sort it out between them. Which is ridiculous because if one wasn't creating trouble there wouldn't be a court application in the first place.

And it can take a second application then to show - this isn't working and needs to be more defined and more specific.
 
I think how you would get a court to see is - you focus on the best interests of your child - who needs seamless transitions between homes without disruption and stress.

It sounds tricky if you don't have transport. How far are you from ex's home/daughter's school? How far is your parent's house from you? There is nothing actually wrong with drop offs at your parents house, providing it's something you're both agreed on, and is suitable and feasible for you to collect your daugher from there (or to be there when she's dropped off). But yes it should be to your home, or from school.

She could argue - she doesn't have to do drop offs - she's being helpful - and it's up to you to collect daughter. If child lives with the mother and "spends time" with the Father (which used to be called "contact" and may still be in Scotland I'm not sure) then the Mother only has to "make the child available" for collection and the onus is on the Dad to collect the child.

So there could be some sticky ground there if she is agreeing to do drop offs but only to certain places. Again what does the court order say about handovers, where, how and who? Presumably it doesn't say anything about that? A defined order would.

So if applying to court you'd want to be asking for a defined order, to ensure troublefree time for daugher and seamless transitions between parents, plus half the school holidays so she enjoys quality time with both parents and extended families. What is the current termtime arrangement again? ie how many days. Do you have her every other week-end and a midweek night?

Sorry - just read back - you see your daughter every week-end - is that for the full week-end or only part of it (that's a decent amount of time weekly). Your daugher is 4. Is she at school yet? Because if not then you want to be looking at arrangements anyway, for when she's at school. And the simplest thing there is collections and drop offs to and from school - so your ex isn't there, can't disrupt things and has no excuse about keeping away from you! Because she shouldn't be there anyway if it says you pick up from school.

The other thing is - if she is due to start school this August/September - you should have a say in this. Or you might find your ex has chosen a school further away from you.
 
Last edited:
Thanks again for such great replies Ash!!

In terms of inviting her to mediation, is a text ok to do this and what sort of thing should I type?

The messages on facebook were along the lines of ‘A narcissist never changes, but you no longer control me’ things like that really which are untrue but don’t directly refer to me.

Is there a standard kind of template I can use to help with getting the court order more tightly worded so wriggle room is not possible

The current court order doesn’t say anything about handovers; my daughter is currently in nursery but will be going to primary school soon (not had any update on which school).

I’m probably just over a mile from my ex’s house but less than half a mile from my work to her address; she had agreed to drop off at my parents and I’m kind of scared to rock the boat as I’m aware she technically doesn’t have to, but I’m just thinking it’s not best long term if I have my own place?

In terms of making the child ‘available’, surely when I pick her up then if I say I’m getting a lift halfway that should be acceptable; it was just the fact they flat out refused to hand her over even though I said that, and like I said how do they know that I’m not going to another family members home on the way back?

It’s currently from about 6pm Friday and she’s then picked up about 8.15am on the Monday; does that mean it’s a bit much asking for more school holiday time with her then?

In terms of having a say as to what school she goes to – what’s the best course of action with that when I already get minimal information?
 
Slight update to the situation - the ex has refused mediation, although indirectly as she pretty much said she'll never negotiate with me and it's just to be done via solicitors.
 
The messages on facebook were along the lines of ‘A narcissist never changes, but you no longer control me’ things like that really which are untrue but don’t directly refer to me.
If you look at the recent Johnny Depp case then technically that's defamation :) Because it can be seen to be directed at you even though it doesn't mention your name. People put all sorts on social media to make themselves sound big. However defamation is incredibly difficult to do through the courts - even if you're a rich superstar!. Your best course of action would be to a) Screenshot that and b) contact Facebook and say these are slurs against you, as her former husband, online and request they be taken down. They should take them down (because Facebook will protect themselves!). If they don't take them down then think about sending a solicitors letter. Because your ex is painting you to the world as a controlling narcissist.

If you see your daughter from 6pm friday until 8.15am Monday, every week-end, that is pretty good time. In fact it's near 50/50 as it's 6 nights a fortnight. And they are doing the drop offs. For all the drop offs are fraught with difficulty, I can't see you'd get more time than that in court - except for the holidays.

If the current court order only says two weeks a year, then you can either accept that they are only going to let you have those two weeks in the summer holidays (in a way it's better or you'd go a long time without seeing your daughter during the long summer holidays). Or you can decide to go back to court and ask for half the school holidays, and at the same time try and get something more defined regarding pickups, dropoffs and location.

They will probably argue they are doing you a favour doing drop offs but don't want to drive all the way to your house (although a mile is nothing!) and don't want to drop her off in the street so they take her to your parent's house. If that makes it difficult for you, getting to your parents house if it's out of your way, then you can ask to have that changed.

I don't think the court would order them to drop off at your house though as technically it's your responsibility to pick up, unless agreed otherwise, and she's not agreeing to drop off at your house. The best the court would order is the pickups and drop offs be shared out. ie they do it one week-end, you do it the next. Or you pick up and they collect each week-end or vice versa. Could they not drop her off at your work?

So you need to think timing and what you want to achieve.

However I think the school issue could be quite urgent. If your daughter is due to start school this August. Do you know if it's this year or next year? I've linked the information on Scottish school commencement age/timings. If it's this year they will already have got a school place and if you don't know where it is it could make it difficult - ie further away. And they could say - can't drop off now as it's further away.

But maybe it's not till next year if your daughter is still 4 and it's after March. Also I don't know what the laws are like on school choices in Scotland. In England you can choose any school within either parent's catchment area. Some are further away than others.

"In Scotland, the school year begins in mid-August. Any single school year group consists of children born between the beginning of March in one year and the end of February the following year. Children born between March and August start school in the August of, or following, their fifth birthday. Those born between September and February start school in the August prior to their fifth birthday. As such, children in Scotland usually start school between the ages of 4.5 and 5.5 years old."


Basically if she is due to start school this August then you want to be looking at an urgent application regarding school choice (and get the rest dealt with at the same time). If she's not starting school till next year, then I would put up with it for now - accept them dropping off at your parents house - they will see that as a neutral location with no direct contact with you. And put up with the two weeks holiday in the summer. But maybe start mediation before school options get submitted for next year. In England a school place has to be applied for in October, for the following September and then it's usually too late to change.

For now I would just send a polite formal email to her solicitor, saying, you are wishing to discuss school choices for your daughter and will Mrs Ex attend mediation over this. Good excuse to start mediation as well without mentioning anything else just yet. They will probably say no. Is there shuttle mediation in Scotland? Check with a mediator. If there is shuttle mediation she has no excuse not to attend - you sit in separate rooms and the mediator goes back and forth between you.

So if they just say no she won't - then you'll have to negotiate in writing with her solicitor. Although this might all be irrelevant if there is no choice of school and she has to go to a particular one due to Scottish law.

For now though, I'd focus on the fact you see your daughter every week-end and they drop off - even if it's at your parents house.
 
True with the Johnny Depp case!

Generally I just want a smooth handover and additional contact during the school holidays and I'd rather be pro-active and get it firmed up sooner rather than later otherwise I know my ex is going to be difficult every single year just to try and remain in control of my life.

I think it would be August 2023 my daughter will start school based on what you shared but again worried in case I've miscalculated and it is this year so again would rather sort it.

For picking her up and dropping her off at school... that's a reasonable request isnt it? For whatever reason, is it acceptable to say that either myself or another responsible adult (grandparent or one of my brothers) could also do this, in case for some reason I'm unwell, in hospital or caught up at work - sorry I just want to be fully prepared so she has literally no room to manipulate things anymore.

Also, in terms of handover - I have been going up to collect her but they have refused to hand her over and then said they'll drop off at her grandparents - at the moment that's fine but as you mention and personally how I feel is I should be able to pick her up myself as she is my responsibility; my ex and her partner shouldnt be withholding my daughter because they think it's going to rain... as mentioned I could be taking her out for her dinner but I shouldnt have to explain this to them as they certainly don't to me

So, how do I word that within the defined order? Right now I've drafted this but would rather I could pick her up myself : Handover Arrangements: Given the difficulty experienced with handovers I would like something formalised to ensure the transition between homes is smooth and causes my daughter no upset as her well-being is my top priority.

The Defendant has for an extended period of time ‘dropped off’ my daughter to my parents address, including when they have refused to hand her over when I go to the pre-agreed pick up location so on this basis it can be assumed they are happy to do this and to avoid any disruption or impact to my daughters well-being whilst transitioning from each home; I request that they drop off to my parents address.

In case of any potential refusal by her mother; I have always been present at my parents home when being dropped off and her mother sits in the car whilst her partner completes the handover – this has also been the case at the previously agreed pick up location so would believe this is acceptable
 
Basically all an order needs to say is "with Father from school finish time until x time x day". Father will facilitate transport to and from school.

It's none of their business if you go yourself or delegate someone else to go, when your daughter is in your care.

Yes I think you need to sort this now because they will be committing to a school place very soon, for next year. And clearly haven't said anything to you. Read up on the options in your area, decide which you think is the best school for her (in terms of being a good school and easily accessible). Then email your ex and say you wish to discuss which school daughter will be going to before a selection is made as this is part of parental responsibility for both parents to consent to and please could she let you know what her preferences are.

See what she replies. If she won't play ball then this could be one way of getting a quick hearing - applying for specific issues on schools and varying child arrangements at the same time. Terminology may be different in scotland but that link I gave you might help.

The best argument for court for school pick ups and drop offs is - it's better for the child to have "seamless transitions". Your ex probably won't want it as it's loss of control from having direct handovers. Court tend to be favourable to it though.

They also might not want you to have her every week-end when school starts but that;s another issue.

What you don;t want is to find they've signed her up to a school too far away from you, without you having had a say in schooling. And as terms start in August in Scotland that could be very soon. (in England sign up is 11 months before they start school).
 
There's a link here about schools. It sounds very similar to England. You can put in 2 or 3 preferences and the council decide what to offer you. Usually you get first choice. If there is more than one school in the catchment area. But these forms only go to one parent usually - so often the Mother chooses and signs up without any consultation. Hence you need to politely start the conversation. If her choice isn;t one you agree with then you could get an urgent application to determine school choice (which could affect feasibility of pickups for you in the future).

 
Perfect, thanks for that!

Can I just run something past you - on the existing order the below statement is noted, my interpretation is that I'd have my daughter for the normal Fri-Mon this New Year but she is saying she gets her 31st Dec - 2nd Jan and I then dont get her until the following weekend (6th Jan)

So essentially I get her the Friday 30th but have to hand her over a day later on 31st?

(d) From 5.00 pm on 24th December (i.e. Christmas Eve) until 09.00 am on 26th December (i.e. Boxing Day) in each even numbered year commencing 2020. The Pursuer will allow the Defender contact for a period of 2 hours on 25th December (i.e. Christmas Day) where Christmas Day does not fall on a day when the Defender would otherwise have the child in her residence. Similarly, the Defender will allow the Pursuer contact for a period of 2 hours on 25th December (i.e. Christmas Day) where Christmas Day does not fall on a day when the Pursuer would otherwise be exercising contact with the child.

(e) From 5:00 pm on 31st December (i.e. New Year’s Eve) until 09:00 am on 2nd January in each odd-numbered year commencing 2021.
 
Last edited:
Point e) is clearly defined that your daughter is with you from 9am 31st December to 9am 2nd January in 2021, 2023 and odd years. This year is 2022 (even year) so no she wouldn't be with you over New Year, she would be with ex.

Point (d) is confusing. It starts out clearly defined - 5pm 24th Dec to 9am 26th in even years (ie this year. That seems clear enough. But then it goes on to say about the 2 hours. Are you the pursuer? I assume that means when it's your year for Christmas, child still goes to Mum's for two years and when it's her year she still comes to you for 2 hours.

So yeah that makes sense. But this year she's with you for Christmas but not for New Year. So normal week-ends won't count - the defined order will override that. Having said that, your ex should be sensible and say you can have your 3 nights on 28th, 29th and 30th instead! Which are part of the school holidays. But these ex's tend to stick to the order to the letter, when it's in their favour.

So ideally what the order should say is - "half the Christmas holidays with each parent" - then go on to define Christmas and New year on alternate years. So you would get the days in between. As it stands at the moment, you lose a week-end if it's New Year and it's her year for new year and New Year falls over a week-end. I'd just go along with that if you still have her on the Friday night.

What you could do is say to her - as New Year falls over your usual week-end time, could you have daughter Wed night to Sat am 31st instead. If she says no, then that's another reason to return for additional holiday time.
 
Ah ok - glad i checked that!

Yeah and I've previously tried to arrange for the 3 days another time over Christmas given this New Year but she flat out refused - I'm just really anxious and distraught at the thought of texting her again only to be shot down again if that makes sense? And yes, I'm the pursuer and she is the defender, sorry should have said.

What I'm hoping to propose in relation to holidays is below - does it seem ok? Think it firms it up so she can't take advantage like she's trying to?

Holidays: The Pursuer & Defendant should each have 50% of ‘each’ of the child’s school holidays throughout the year commencing 2022, makeup of each school holiday should be:
  • Autumn (Usually October): The Pursuer should receive the first full 7 days and the Defendant should receive the subsequent full 7 days.
  • Winter: Previously agreed arrangement [items (d) & (e)] to remain in place with following proposed amendment added to item (e) The Pursuer will allow the Defender contact for a period of 2 hours on 1st January (i.e. New Year’s Day) where New Year’s Day does not fall on a day when the Defender would otherwise have the child in her residence. Similarly, the Defender will allow the Pursuer contact for a period of 2 hours on 1st January (i.e. New Year’s Day) where New Year’s Day does not fall on a day when the Pursuer would otherwise be exercising contact with the child.
  • Spring (Usually April): The Pursuer should receive the first full 7 days and the Defender should receive the subsequent full 7 days.
  • Summer (Usually June-August): The Pursuer should receive the first full 21 days and the Defender should receive the subsequent full 21 days.
 
I don't know how things are worded in Scotland but it's usually more child focused in England. So rather than saying the pursuer or defender will receive, it would say - "the child will spend x days with the pursuer and x days with the defender" so it's more child focused and less parent focused.

You may need to check order terminology for Scotland but I would have proposed something like:

The child will spend half the school holidays with each of the parents.

Autumn (usually October) - the first 7 days with the pursuer and the last 7 days with the defender
Winter and Christmas holidays - I wouldn't do the 2 hours thing but just add extra days with you - do you get time off between Christmas and New Year? The 2 hours thing might need to be dropped in future as your daughter gets older anyway as it would be a lot of shunting about for her on Christmas Day. Understandably, at the moment, it's important for you as you hardly see her in the Christmas holidays - but if you had half the holidays I would drop that 2 hour exchange and just say a phone call with the other parent instead.

So winter and Christmas holidays could be - a full half of the Christmas holidays with each parent. To include 5pm 24th December to 9am 26th December with pursuer in 2022 and even years and with Defender in 2023 and odd years. And to include 5pm 31st December to 9am 2nd Jan with Defender in 2022 and even years and with Pursuer in 2023 and odd years. The remaining days of the Christmas holidays to be divided between the parents.

The problem with that is - disagreements about how the remaining days are divided. What my order has, to split the Christmas holidays is as follows. (The Christmas holidays are 16 days here - 2 weeks plus a week-end counting from the Friday they finish school):

5pm 23rd December to 11am 26th December and the last 5 days of the Christmas holidays, with Father (pursuer) and remaining Christmas holiday days with Mother in 2022 and even years. Then 5pm 23rd Dec to 11am 26th Dec and last 5 days of Christmas holidays with Mother (responder) and remaining Christmas holidays with Father (pursuer) in 2023 and odd days.

What that does is make clear which days in each year. However it gives you Christmas AND new year one year. And neither the next year. But you get the remainder of the days including from 11am Boxing day (for a second Christmas day basically).

You might not want that if you alternate New year each year at the moment. Another alternative that some people go for is a full week each plus dividing any remaining days. The downside to that is one parent doesn't see the child for a full week over Christmas.

So - it's hard to define exactly which days between and before Christmas and New year because the Christmas holidays fall differently every year. Some years they finish school the day before Christmas Day. Some years there's a whole week of holidays before Christmas Day. Which is why my order breaks it down to 3 days over Christmas, 5 days at the end (which includes New Year) and all the other remaining days with the other parent (whichever those days may be). You also want the minimum amount of chopping and changing between homes for daughter - or they hardly get chance to enjoy playing with their presents, which can be hard. Assuming your ex would make a huge stink about not having either Christmas or New Year in one year then how about:

Winter/Christmas holidays: In 2022 and even years - 5pm 23rd Dec to 11am 26th Dec with pursuer, 11am 26th December to 5pm 28th December with defender, 5pm 28th Dec to 11am 31st December with pursuer, 11am 31st December to return to school after the holidays with defender. Any remaining Christmas holiday days with pursuer. In 2023 and odd years - (then it repeats in reverse). A phone call with the other parent on Christmas day at approximately 11am.

That means the person who gets New Year each year gets about 4 or 5 consecutive days. The person who gets Christmas day each year gets any additional days not accounted for.

It can be really complicated to divide Christmas! Have a think about it. It's easier to divide if one parent gets Christmas and New Year both years or you have a full week each.

Anyway, moving on

Spring: The child will spend the first 7 days with the pursuer and the last 7 days with the responder
Summer: The child will spend the first 21 days with the p and the last 21 days with the r

(or you could just have - the child will spend the first half of the holiday with x and the second half with y. then it doesn't specify how many days but is clear it's a full half with each).

The other thing that's important, with half the school holidays - is to clarify WHEN the holidays start and end (to avoid further arguments) - ie do the holidays start on the last day of term and end on the first day of term? Or do they start on the Saturday morning after the last day of term and end on the Sunday evening before term starts again? Or do they exclude the first week-end at the end of term and start on the first Monday after term ends.

My suggestion would be a line that says "all school holidays commence at the time school finishes on the last day of term and end at the time school commences on the first day of the next term". What that does is include everything between terms as holidays - to be divided. Otherwise you get the ex claiming an extra week-end or something so it's less than half each.

For the two week holidays you could have them starting on the first Monday so it's a full week each. But that doesn't always work well for Christmas as Christmas day could end up being the first week-end of the holidays! Best to keep them all the same.

So you get two weeks in October and Spring? And nothing for Easter? What we get in England is:

1 week in October, 2 weeks (16 days) at Christmas, 1 week in February, 2 weeks (16 days) over Easter, 1 week end of May, 6 to 7 weeks in Summer.

ie 13 weeks school holidays a year.

It would be interesting to know what Scottish school holidays are! Or is the 2 weeks in Spring over Easter and nothing in May because Summer holidays start in June?
 
Last edited:
Thanks again Ash!

Yeah so the School Holidays I've noted are what kids get in Scotland - the Spring ones are essentially Easter, there are some inservice days throughout the year but I've been (in my opinion) kind and not included those within the request (in fact should i note that so it shows how reasonable I'm continuing to be?)

Sorry, can I just circle back on the handover before my daughter goes to school? So there will be roughly a year of that before I start picking her up/dropping off at school.

So I want to avoid my ex or her partner refusing to hand her over claiming things such as 'weather is bad' etc - how do i get something a bit more concrete in the order? So sometimes I might take her for her dinner somewhere, sometimes I might go to a relatives and sometimes I might get a lift from family or even potentially a taxi.... but I don't feel I should have to justify which is being done to them, I should just pick up my daughter and that's it really?
 
Why won't they let you pick her up from nursery or Mum's house? Sorry if you explained that already.
 
She won’t actually tell me what days/times my daughter goes to nursery, getting any information is ridiculously more difficult than it needs to be (she really is that controlling so I’d almost given up before coming here for help)

It’s not a big deal them dropping her off at my parents, however my daughter is my responsibility so I should be able to pick her up myself from the previously agreed pick up point - the drop off at parents only happened because one of my parents were unwell so can’t drive up to collect her and one of the other times was because they claimed it would start raining.

My point is that I can’t rely on someone to pick her up or trust that they will always drop her off

My ex is going to be as difficult as possible at any tiny point she can when she gets sight of the changes being proposed so I know she’s going to start saying they won’t hand my daughter over unless they know I’m getting a lift or something

But why should I have to tell her I’m getting picked up halfway or going to take my daughter for her dinner just to get her handed over if that makes sense?

So just need some form of wording that they have no choice but to hand her over or they’re breaching the court order.

It would only really be needed for the interim period from now til when she starts school
 
I think you'd just want an order to say the child is with the pursuer "from x time on x day to x time on x day" the pursuer will facilitate collections of the child from the Mother's home and the Mother will make the child available from her home. The responder will facilitate collections of the child from the Father's home. From the time the child starts school, collections and drop offs will be to and from school by the Father on his respective days.

Something like that. Because there's usually also a flexibility clause that says something like "such further and other times as agreed between the parties in writing". So if you ever wanted to pick up from a different location then she'd have to agree it in writing - if not agreed by both then it's a breach of the order. Basically she would have to make the child available, at her home at that time on those days. If she wanted to do anything different she would need to ask you to agree to something different. She may still mess about until child starts school though.
 
Back
Top