Contested non-mol hearing

[Ash]

An NMO hearing is not the same thing though. An ex's solicitor will often push for a fact find because it drags things out longer and they hope for a result in their favour. But it's usually a Judge who decides whether there should be a fact find or not and they can decide it's not necessary.

 

[DadLad]

At the first hearing the ex’s solicitor tried to submit more documents but the judge refused this.

Then at the second hearing a different judge said apply with a C2 if you wish to submit more documents which contradicts the first.

I know exactly what dirty trick those solicitors will do. They will submit more documents days before the hearing to try and undermine me.

All I have atm is my statement denying all allegations. A witness statement and a bundle that the ex’s solicitor has put together with documents from the previous dismissed case and has left out documents.

I have asked numerous times for a Scott Schedule and I have contacted the courts regarding this - 2 weeks and still waiting.

I refuse to walk into a trap without knowing what the allegations are and a chance to present my own counter evidence.

Can I turn up on the day and present my evidence?

 

[Resolute]

A flow chart on this stuff would be really useful, it is not at all intuitive. Different legislation covers different types of order and having multiple applications in play can lead to more than one case number as a result. There are also ramifications for legal aid options and whether or not the case is public or private. Getting things dealt with swiftly is better for all concerned (except mum's solicitors ), but going into a child arrangement final hearing with unresolved Domestic Abuse matters can be catastrophic.

'You pays your money and you takes your chances'

 

[Resolute]

At the first hearing the ex’s solicitor tried to submit more documents but the judge refused this.

Then at the second hearing a different judge said apply with a C2 if you wish to submit more documents which contradicts the first.

I know exactly what dirty trick those solicitors will do. They will submit more documents days before the hearing to try and undermine me.

All I have atm is my statement denying all allegations. A witness statement and a bundle that the ex’s solicitor has put together with documents from the previous dismissed case and has left out documents.

I have asked numerous times for a Scott Schedule and I have contacted the courts regarding this - 2 weeks and still waiting.

I refuse to walk into a trap without knowing what the allegations are and a chance to present my own counter evidence.

Can I turn up on the day and present my evidence?

I have filed and served evidence at the last minute, and had evidence filed and served against me. The court accepted both ways, but that is no guarantee.

I think a strongly worded letter to your ex's solicitor is in order. Over the weekend I'll look for an example, don't have access to old emails where I am.

 

[Ash]

At the first hearing the ex’s solicitor tried to submit more documents but the judge refused this.

Then at the second hearing a different judge said apply with a C2 if you wish to submit more documents which contradicts the first.

I know exactly what dirty trick those solicitors will do. They will submit more documents days before the hearing to try and undermine me.

All I have atm is my statement denying all allegations. A witness statement and a bundle that the ex’s solicitor has put together with documents from the previous dismissed case and has left out documents.

I have asked numerous times for a Scott Schedule and I have contacted the courts regarding this - 2 weeks and still waiting.

I refuse to walk into a trap without knowing what the allegations are and a chance to present my own counter evidence.

Can I turn up on the day and present my evidence?

I think you need more than denying the allegations. If the bundle contains documents from a previous dismissed case, you could email the court and say - the bundle is inappropriate as it contains the documents from a previously dismissed case and not much new. If there are documents missing you want included, you say that in the email as well and attach the documents.

If they have given you a bundle then you know what they are using and can prepare evidence and a statement against what is used - even if it means repeating previously used evidence. But you need some evidence to show something is untrue.

If they do produce evidence at the last minute then you won't have anything to counteract it and can only say - this is also untrue and it was not in the bundle so I have been unable to prepare a response and I ask the court to dismiss this.

However if they did do this, the court are likely to adjourn, and give specific directions as to what can be submitted next time. Which delays the process again.

You can only do your best.

 

[DadLad]

I have filed and served evidence at the last minute, and had evidence filed and served against me. The court accepted both ways, but that is no guarantee.

I think a strongly worded letter to your ex's solicitor is in order. Over the weekend I'll look for an example, don't have access to old emails where I am.

The solicitor is an absolute see you next Tuesday. They have caused numerous obstructions between me and my child. They constantly ignore emails, they delay everything and withold information from me. They have done all types of underhanded and dirty tricks but when I bring this up in front of a judge nothing is done about it.

How am I supposed to have a fair hearing when this is allowed? How am I supposed to represent myself without prejudice when this can happen?

 

[DadLad]

Whenever I email the court with my concerns and issues raised they just say; “submit the correct application”

This is at my expense, and what boils me the most is that when they are proven as liars and dragged your life through the courts you aren’t reimbursed for your losses??

 

[Ash]

There is some useful information here.

"B) What is challenging the order actually going to achieve? Many respondents feel aggrieved when they see that a person (typically an ex-partner) has sought to take out a court order against them on the basis of what they say are vicious lies. With that, many people opt to fight against an order simply because they do not want the applicant to ‘win’, or for their own name to be blackened. However, a respondent should always consider what challenging the order is actually going to gain. If a person opposes the order and succeeds in proving the applicant wrong, it isn’t like you see on the television and everyone is suddenly aware that the ex-partner has now been branded a liar, with the respondent being able to hold their head up high. What it does do is create further animosity between the parties (which can be particularly unhelpful if there are children involved), as well as adding pressures of both time and money. Instead, a respondent can either not oppose the order or agree to undertakings (which is a promise to the court not to do things) on the basis that they do not accept the allegations that have been made against them – this avoids the need for a contest, shows the court you are not simply in it to prove the applicant a liar, and inevitably is only preventing a person from what they should not be doing anyway (i.e. assaulting the applicant)."

So according to this, doing an undertaking, rather than defending, means you don't accept the allegations. It doesn't mean you're admitting them. I hear Resolute's point as well that mud sticks if it is not dismissed and they will bring that up later. But - the case will still be closed and you can move forwards with Child Arrangements hearings and not have further delays in seeing your children.

It is something you can address later during Child Arrangements hearings by saying the allegations were untrue but in order to reduce conflict for the children and move forwards, I agreed to an undertaking while not admitting the allegations.

The chances are, your ex will repeat the same allegations to Cafcass and try and get a s7 or fact find hearing, so the sooner you move forwards with that the sooner you're likely to get to see your kids I think.

What stage is it actually at with Child Arrangements? Assume you've actually applied. Have you had Cafcass calls yet.

https://www.campionssolicitors.co.uk/consider-responding-application-non-molestation-order

 

[DadLad]

There is some useful information here.

"B) What is challenging the order actually going to achieve? Many respondents feel aggrieved when they see that a person (typically an ex-partner) has sought to take out a court order against them on the basis of what they say are vicious lies. With that, many people opt to fight against an order simply because they do not want the applicant to ‘win’, or for their own name to be blackened. However, a respondent should always consider what challenging the order is actually going to gain. If a person opposes the order and succeeds in proving the applicant wrong, it isn’t like you see on the television and everyone is suddenly aware that the ex-partner has now been branded a liar, with the respondent being able to hold their head up high. What it does do is create further animosity between the parties (which can be particularly unhelpful if there are children involved), as well as adding pressures of both time and money. Instead, a respondent can either not oppose the order or agree to undertakings (which is a promise to the court not to do things) on the basis that they do not accept the allegations that have been made against them – this avoids the need for a contest, shows the court you are not simply in it to prove the applicant a liar, and inevitably is only preventing a person from what they should not be doing anyway (i.e. assaulting the applicant)."

So according to this, doing an undertaking, rather than defending, means you don't accept the allegations. It doesn't mean you're admitting them. I hear Resolute's point as well that mud sticks if it is not dismissed and they will bring that up later. But - the case will still be closed and you can move forwards with Child Arrangements hearings and not have further delays in seeing your children.

https://www.campionssolicitors.co.uk/consider-responding-application-non-molestation-order

There was no option for an undertaking. it was either accept the order with no admissions or findings or go to a contested hearing - this was my initial choice and May is a ground rules hearing (no idea what this is) and in June is the fixed date for a 2 day hearing.

Part of me wants to accept the order with no findings so it is over and done with (this could come back and bite me at a child arrangements hearing) but then another part of me wants to fight for my truth and innocence and clear my name.

 

[Ash]

The only advice I have seen from others who have been in this situation is, it may be a time when you need a lawyer on your case - which will cost money. A lawyer would know what a ground rules hearing is. And they might be able to persuade the Judge to do an undertaking instead.

 

[DadLad]

The only advice I have seen from others who have been in this situation is, it may be a time when you need a lawyer on your case - which will cost money. A lawyer would know what a ground rules hearing is. And they might be able to persuade the Judge to do an undertaking instead.

I honestly can not afford a lawyer. I am not getting into debt for this.

 

[Resolute]

Found the email I was thinking of (not written by me), it had the desired impact on solicitors that were playing fast and loose:

"Dear Solicitor,

Your client was directed to file and serve [INSERT DOC NAME] by XX:XX on [MONTH] the XXth by order of Judge XXXXXX, DD/MM/YY (date of order).

I am concerned that your client has failed to provide evidence on time and as ordered and as a result does not have permission to file and rely on the same.

I formally invite you to confirm she has no evidence to file, or alternatively, look forward to considering an application to file out of time.

Additionally, I am gravely concerned by your client’s recent behaviour to deprive CHILD of ordered time with his/her father.

Yours sincerely..."

Perhaps an adaptation of this would stimulate action from your ex's "professionals". The tone and style worked.

 

[DadLad]

Found the email I was thinking of (not written by me), it had the desired impact on solicitors that were playing fast and loose:

"Dear Solicitor,

Your client was directed to file and serve [INSERT DOC NAME] by XX:XX on [MONTH] the XXth by order of Judge XXXXXX, DD/MM/YY (date of order).

I am concerned that your client has failed to provide evidence on time and as ordered and as a result does not have permission to file and rely on the same.

I formally invite you to confirm she has no evidence to file, or alternatively, look forward to considering an application to file out of time.

Additionally, I am gravely concerned by your client’s recent behaviour to deprive CHILD of ordered time with his/her father.

Yours sincerely..."

Perhaps an adaptation of this would stimulate action from your ex's "professionals". The tone and style worked.

I did send an email to the courts and her solicitor 2 weeks ago. And chased it up again this week.

I have not started the application process for child proceedings yet as I need this done and dusted so that I can have 1 focus.

2 years this has been going on now. The stress is a living nightmare, and all these underhanded and dirty tricks are what makes it worse.

 

[DadLad]

Why has the ex got a solicitor involved for a Non-Mol hearing or is the Non-Mol getting herself lined up to receive the legal aid purse?

I got my Non-Mol against my ex myself and it was pretty easy seeing the pile of evidence I presented to the court showing her behavior and the general daily harassments I was putting up with. My ex true to form decided to fight it and turned up with a solicitor who in my eyes was an absolute idiot and I ran rings round her in the hearing, end result was the Non-Mol granted and my ex got a £3k bill from this solicitor.

Unfortunately it’s the same sad story we hear every day. She applied for a non-mol to gain free legal aid to later line herself up with free representation at child arrangement proceedings.

Another loophole exploited and abused against thousands of innocent Fathers with children being the ones who suffer in the end.

 

[DadLad]

I have forgotten to thank everyone for their advice and input so far. This is greatly appreciated and I am taking everything on board. You guys are making things much more easier to understand and also from a voice of reason.

Thank you

 

[Ash]

If it's been going on for two years and your child has been kept away all this time, then this is her tactic - delay, delay, delay. You want this resolved asap. Not adjourned for another hearing because they submitted the wrong things or you weren't prepared.

You could even say that in a position statement. That you wish the court to consider you making an undertaking rather than proceedings become protracted as delay is harmful to the child.

 

[Daddy]

You should get your child arrangements application in now! It can take years to get a final order and by the sound of it, you'll be fighting another non mol in a few months time. Further delay will go against you.
Accepting on a no admissions and no findings basis is what it says on the tin. There's no findings.
I seem to remember that undertakings are offered when domestic violence/abuse is raised, I could be wrong though.
I think you're fighting the wrong battle. You need to concentrate on child arrangements.

 

[18city]

Offer the undertaking in lieu of the non mol on no findings no admissions first. If they don't accept that you can offer to accept the non mol on a no findings no admissions basis and it will be over. The difference between the two is an undertaking in lieu of a non mol order disposes with the power of arrest, whereas if you accept the non mol order the power of arrest stays attached for the duration. You need to be clear on the differences of the two. Make sure it is just the undertaking you offer first, you then have the Plan B of accepting the non mol on no findings and the other side have to accept that.

Concentrate on child arrangements that is what I did, this is just an attempt to delay it. If you get this agreed out of court it will be over and the hearing in June vacated and you can focus on Child Arrangements.

 

[Ash]

Or you could ask for the hearing in June to be an FHDRA. Have you actually submitted an application for Child Areangements yet?

 

[Resolute]

Or you could ask for the hearing in June to be an FHDRA. Have you actually submitted an application for Child Areangements yet?

Child arrangements application definitely needs to go in, I do not see reason to delay.

Wouldn't the court be minded to bring the two together?

Would it need to be done as an application within proceedings, C2? Or could it be done fresh?

I hear all of the points about not opposing out of pure bloody-mindedness, and I agree. But this is an application that is already dismissed, it does not need to be beaten!