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Cafcass changing interim contact?
- Thread starter Brs1177
- Start date
Have they had mediation? Probably not if it was an urgent application. The Mother could propose mediation via her solicitor . A good mediator can help them see each other’s point of view and reach agreement . If they agree the 50/50 it can be done as a consent order at the first hearing and save a lot of time, money and heartache.
It’s a compromise solution that makes then equal. One of the best schedules with younger children for 50/50 is 2-2-5-5. That’s two consecutive midweek nights with each parent and every other week end with each parent from Friday through to Monday morning. The 5 nights is the weekend tacked onto the 2 midweek nights. So one week it would be for example
Monday Tuesday (through to Wednesday am) with Dad
Wednesday Thursday (through to Friday am) with Mum
Then Friday through to Wednesday am with Dad
Then Wednesday through to Monday am with Mum
Then repeat (it’s a fortnightly schedule). Means the kids see both parents regularly and aren’t away from either parent for more than 5 days. Except in school holidays.
School holidays are equal. That’s usually - split half terms (although some people prefer a full designated half term each and one split half term - allowing for a holiday outside of expensive summer holidays).
Half Easter holidays
Half Christmas holidays (Christmas alternating between parents annually)
Half summer holidays - this is usually a 2 week and 1 week block each with younger kids and any additional days split between them.
There can be a lot of arguments about how the 50/50 works so defined weeks helps.
Eg May half term with Mum, October half term with Dad. Feb hskf term split - keeping to usual week ends with changeover on Wednesdays.
First half of Easter holidays with Dad odd years and second hslf even years (and vice versa with Mum the odd and even years),
Same as Easter with Christmas holidays.
Weeks 1, 2 and 5 of summer with one parent - weeks 3, 4 and 6 with the other parent.
Even then it needs specifying when holidays are counted from (last day of term through to first day of next term) to avoid arguments over dates.
This might sound rigid but there is always a clause “such further and other times as agreed between the parties in writing”. Which means they are free to swap weeks or dates now and then providing both agree to it and confirm in writing (text or email) so the order is still valid. If its not agreed and not kept to its a breach.
It’s usually best to follow it to the letter unless there are exceptional circumstances like a funeral or wedding that can’t be moved to another date.
It allows both parents to book holidays and make plans well in advance without having to have lots of toing and froing by email.
If the Mother wants to sort this out, the best thing she could do is have her solicitor send a draft consent order to the Father’s solicitor (with terms as above) seeking agreement to a consent order. He will probably be advised to accept it. Providing the wording is clear as above and no vague wording or “get out” clauses that make it unfair.
Forget mediation. The Mother needs to send a draft consent order to the Fathers solicitor.
If he refuses that it will drag on and he’s stabbing him self in the foot. It’s best for the children if things are resolved quicker.
Bearing in mind he must be very upset and in shock at the affair.
Monday Tuesday (through to Wednesday am) with Dad
Wednesday Thursday (through to Friday am) with Mum
Then Friday through to Wednesday am with Dad
Then Wednesday through to Monday am with Mum
Then repeat (it’s a fortnightly schedule). Means the kids see both parents regularly and aren’t away from either parent for more than 5 days. Except in school holidays.
School holidays are equal. That’s usually - split half terms (although some people prefer a full designated half term each and one split half term - allowing for a holiday outside of expensive summer holidays).
Half Easter holidays
Half Christmas holidays (Christmas alternating between parents annually)
Half summer holidays - this is usually a 2 week and 1 week block each with younger kids and any additional days split between them.
There can be a lot of arguments about how the 50/50 works so defined weeks helps.
Eg May half term with Mum, October half term with Dad. Feb hskf term split - keeping to usual week ends with changeover on Wednesdays.
First half of Easter holidays with Dad odd years and second hslf even years (and vice versa with Mum the odd and even years),
Same as Easter with Christmas holidays.
Weeks 1, 2 and 5 of summer with one parent - weeks 3, 4 and 6 with the other parent.
Even then it needs specifying when holidays are counted from (last day of term through to first day of next term) to avoid arguments over dates.
This might sound rigid but there is always a clause “such further and other times as agreed between the parties in writing”. Which means they are free to swap weeks or dates now and then providing both agree to it and confirm in writing (text or email) so the order is still valid. If its not agreed and not kept to its a breach.
It’s usually best to follow it to the letter unless there are exceptional circumstances like a funeral or wedding that can’t be moved to another date.
It allows both parents to book holidays and make plans well in advance without having to have lots of toing and froing by email.
If the Mother wants to sort this out, the best thing she could do is have her solicitor send a draft consent order to the Father’s solicitor (with terms as above) seeking agreement to a consent order. He will probably be advised to accept it. Providing the wording is clear as above and no vague wording or “get out” clauses that make it unfair.
Forget mediation. The Mother needs to send a draft consent order to the Fathers solicitor.
If he refuses that it will drag on and he’s stabbing him self in the foot. It’s best for the children if things are resolved quicker.
Bearing in mind he must be very upset and in shock at the affair.
Judges do not like this type of video evidence and will pay little if any weight to it at all. The family court is not a playground for adult litigation, and bad behaviour on one or both parties do not amount to Domestic Abuse. Where bad behaviour stops and coercive and controlling behaviour begins no one can tell for sure though...
Now, as Ash has said judges and Cafcass are lenient with allegations coming from the mother, but for daddy this is a no, no... Having said that a third of domestic abuse cases in England and Wales are committed by women, and if he's got a strong case by all means he need to fight for his rights....
If a consent order is drawn up and approved by both solicitors it can just be sent to the court for sealing and no further hearings. Or it can be done at the first hearing . Neither should withdraw applications until the sealed order is in their hands.
What courts want is parents to agree - rather than it become adversarial.
A consent order for Child arrangements is equally legal to an order decuded by a court - no difference.
What courts want is parents to agree - rather than it become adversarial.
A consent order for Child arrangements is equally legal to an order decuded by a court - no difference.
He’d need hard evidence. Hospital reports of injuries etc. Even then it can be hard to prove. Anything that happened shortly pre separation is likely to be put down to breakdown of marriage.
At the end of the day as well - the marriage is over - it’s now about making arrangements for the kids. Both parents are supposed to put hurt feelings to one side and focus on being courteous with the other at a distance and only about the kids.
I meant to add above - all changeovers should be directly to and from school or nursery so both parents aren’t there at the same time (tensions can spill over and it’s conflict for the kids). Only in holidays would changeovers be to and from each other’s homes. And even then there doesn’t have to be any communication if it’s difficult. Doorstep handovers usually but it can be from the garden gate eg or just dropped outside the house (not for a baby obviously!).
How old is the youngest one?
Thank you. All of these views are really helpful.
Is drawing up a consent order presumptuous? Unfortunately it has become incredibly unpleasant and mother would very much like to de-escalate. She is distressed by the false allegations, as I know many fathers on here have experienced. It seems a bit of a gender reversal - she would like children to see both parents and to make an arrangement that works for both parents but father’s goal is to prove her as an abuser and get the children. Feels a little weaponised.
The youngest is 2.
Is drawing up a consent order presumptuous? Unfortunately it has become incredibly unpleasant and mother would very much like to de-escalate. She is distressed by the false allegations, as I know many fathers on here have experienced. It seems a bit of a gender reversal - she would like children to see both parents and to make an arrangement that works for both parents but father’s goal is to prove her as an abuser and get the children. Feels a little weaponised.
The youngest is 2.
I think it sounds like the Father’s allegations are retaliation - after being accused of child abuse.
A good solicitor could phone Dads solicitor and say look we want to move things forward peacefully for the children and have a consent order for children to live with both parents 50/50. Will your client agree to this if wording is approved?
The Father won’t get sole residency - however if he is not being advised well then he may decide to take things all the way to final hearing.
Mediation could maybe calm things down a bit. Sounds like they are both very upset. Which is what happens when families break down and marriages end. It’s a mess. But once there is an order in place and a routine, things calm down and they can both get on with their own lives.
If the Mothers lawyer draws up a consent order (with fair wording) and it is refused then it may look worse for the Father in court for not accepting.
If he insists on pursuing allegations then things will be dragged out and a section 7 report which will decide who the children should live with and whether there are any welfare issues. Usually one party isn’t happy with the results (sometimes neither are happy with what the court orders). So if a 50/50 consent order can be reached it will make all their lives a lot easier.
A good solicitor could phone Dads solicitor and say look we want to move things forward peacefully for the children and have a consent order for children to live with both parents 50/50. Will your client agree to this if wording is approved?
The Father won’t get sole residency - however if he is not being advised well then he may decide to take things all the way to final hearing.
Mediation could maybe calm things down a bit. Sounds like they are both very upset. Which is what happens when families break down and marriages end. It’s a mess. But once there is an order in place and a routine, things calm down and they can both get on with their own lives.
If the Mothers lawyer draws up a consent order (with fair wording) and it is refused then it may look worse for the Father in court for not accepting.
If he insists on pursuing allegations then things will be dragged out and a section 7 report which will decide who the children should live with and whether there are any welfare issues. Usually one party isn’t happy with the results (sometimes neither are happy with what the court orders). So if a 50/50 consent order can be reached it will make all their lives a lot easier.
Just to clarify. It's not like a criminal court. There are no "punishments" whether allegations are found true or deemed false. It's all classed as "he said she said" until evidence is asked for. The prime purpose of the family court is - the best interests of the child. Usually that is a presumption of "significant and regular time" with both parents. Unless there are welfare issues found. They are not going to take a child away from a Mother without Police and Social Services recommendation probably. Yet Police and social services usually just say - apply to family court. The court will become concerned about the children being caught up in the middle if both parties continue to accuse each other. If the Mother stops making allegations and says she wants to resolve things, the Father's will probably be dismissed too. He wouldn't be deemed at risk from the Mother, even if she was violent, if they're separated now. If social services haven't been involved before and the school or nursery have raised no issues, the child will be deemed not to be at risk. The Mother will get brownie points for being child focused and trying to settle.
It sounds like it's all been very sudden (if it was an urgent application). Bear in mind the Father could well have been advised to keep the children by a Solicitor! We've seen that kind of advice before. The kids end up being pulled back and forth as each parent keeps them - it needs sorting out so they have stability.
At the back of that, the system is very slow, especially since the pandemic, and everyone's lives are on hold and full of stress for a year or more as things go along. It's difficult to explain to parents, when in the throes of separation and trauma and pain - that the sensible thing to do is reach an agreement. And have that agreement formalised in a consent order. Especially when solicitors can make it more adversarial. Solicitors DON'T act in the child's best interests - they act in their Client's best interests - so they can fuel things further. There are some solicitors who believe in collaboration - if possible. The longer a case goes on, the more money they earn! I don't have a lot of time for them. Barristers are worth it - for hearings. Having said that there are times when you need a solicitor - eg to do a consent order outside of court hearings.
It sounds like it's all been very sudden (if it was an urgent application). Bear in mind the Father could well have been advised to keep the children by a Solicitor! We've seen that kind of advice before. The kids end up being pulled back and forth as each parent keeps them - it needs sorting out so they have stability.
At the back of that, the system is very slow, especially since the pandemic, and everyone's lives are on hold and full of stress for a year or more as things go along. It's difficult to explain to parents, when in the throes of separation and trauma and pain - that the sensible thing to do is reach an agreement. And have that agreement formalised in a consent order. Especially when solicitors can make it more adversarial. Solicitors DON'T act in the child's best interests - they act in their Client's best interests - so they can fuel things further. There are some solicitors who believe in collaboration - if possible. The longer a case goes on, the more money they earn! I don't have a lot of time for them. Barristers are worth it - for hearings. Having said that there are times when you need a solicitor - eg to do a consent order outside of court hearings.
Really interesting views - thanks so much.
Mother is really keen to sort out of court but father’s side still very militant and angry in tone and approach.
To clarify, she never accused the father of anything. He has made all allegations against her. She has refuted them with her version of events but she has not accused him of anything. It seems to have come from anger due to the infidelity, and perhaps fear of losing contact with the children? But it is surprising that it is continuing given mother’s willingness to share residence - makes me wonder if he is receiving poor advice or solicitor egging him on to make more money.
Mother’s solicitor has said she should not propose arrangements in her position statement at this next hearing and that that is for another time? It’s all so complex.
Mother is really keen to sort out of court but father’s side still very militant and angry in tone and approach.
To clarify, she never accused the father of anything. He has made all allegations against her. She has refuted them with her version of events but she has not accused him of anything. It seems to have come from anger due to the infidelity, and perhaps fear of losing contact with the children? But it is surprising that it is continuing given mother’s willingness to share residence - makes me wonder if he is receiving poor advice or solicitor egging him on to make more money.
Mother’s solicitor has said she should not propose arrangements in her position statement at this next hearing and that that is for another time? It’s all so complex.
Solicitors will take it step by step through the process until final hearing now it's started - unless they take instructions to push for a consent order. Which means it will run it's course and take a long time. Hopefully Cafcass will recommend mediation then the solicitors won't be able to keep it adversarial.
First hearing is also an opportunity for agreements to be reached for a consent order - which the court always hopes will happen. Court is not the same as solicitors (bizarrely).
What is the next hearing? And have Cafcass calls/letter been done yet?
First hearing is also an opportunity for agreements to be reached for a consent order - which the court always hopes will happen. Court is not the same as solicitors (bizarrely).
What is the next hearing? And have Cafcass calls/letter been done yet?
Like in any other profession there are good professionals and bad ones.... and a lot of mediocre people... The solicitor may have advised the father to take a different stance, but at the end of the day he/she will take instructions from the client and go with it even if they know that the client is shooting himself in the foot.
It gets more interesting when you are in court and you're dealing with a barrister. I found the barristers to be a lot more ruthless in telling me what not to do and what to ask for. Then there is the judge.... a good judge will cut to the crap and make sensible decisions forward.
Hi all,
Just to say the safeguarding letter has said that there are no safeguarding issues and both sides should submit proposals about arrangements.
It also says that although the court might be minded to order a fact finding hearing, the Cafcass officer suggests it would not make difference to the overall decision and so doesn’t recommend it. It says Cafcass needs no more involvement.
Would the judge ever ignore this recommendation not to have a fact find?
Thanks,
Just to say the safeguarding letter has said that there are no safeguarding issues and both sides should submit proposals about arrangements.
It also says that although the court might be minded to order a fact finding hearing, the Cafcass officer suggests it would not make difference to the overall decision and so doesn’t recommend it. It says Cafcass needs no more involvement.
Would the judge ever ignore this recommendation not to have a fact find?
Thanks,
Good news. I think it's unlikely a fact find will be ordered if Cafcass have just vaguely said "the court might be minded" and then said no further involvement for them. It means they are putting allegations made down to post separation conflict more likely.
Hi all,
Just a brief update ahead of next hearing. Since receiving Cafcass safeguarding letter saying no further role for Cafcass, father has called police/social services again but this time saying member of mother’s family has hit child. Again - totally untrue. Police came round and talked, no further action taken. He has also submitted a statement rehashing all allegations in original c100/c1a as well as new ones about parental alienation and concerns the children have started swearing (not true from our perspective).
Will either of these have an impact? It seems social services/police have not seen any need to investigate further but would this change Cafcass saying no need for further involvement from them?
Thanks - sorry if this is garbled.
Just a brief update ahead of next hearing. Since receiving Cafcass safeguarding letter saying no further role for Cafcass, father has called police/social services again but this time saying member of mother’s family has hit child. Again - totally untrue. Police came round and talked, no further action taken. He has also submitted a statement rehashing all allegations in original c100/c1a as well as new ones about parental alienation and concerns the children have started swearing (not true from our perspective).
Will either of these have an impact? It seems social services/police have not seen any need to investigate further but would this change Cafcass saying no need for further involvement from them?
Thanks - sorry if this is garbled.
If Cafcass have said no welfare issues and no longer involved then that should be the case. If he brings up the allegations (and new ones) at the next hearing they could be dismissed. But if he has a lawyer they may ask for a section 7 report to look into things more. Or - either side might ask for a fact finding hearing (depending on whether they think it would be beneficial for their case or not). It sounds like there could be a fact find if he is continuing to make allegations. In that scenario the allegations would have to be set out and the other party respond with their responses to those allegations and any evidence that refutes the allegations. Sometimes there isn't a lot of evidence on either side and then the Judge just decides who he or she believes. And "finds" on the balance of probability. If he/she finds the allegations are spurious then they can't be raised again. If he finds the allegations may be true then further investigation could be ordered or a different order made. Sometimes a fact find becomes a final hearing - but usually a final hearing is later.
Why is he accusing parental alienation? Is he getting to see the kids? Reading back, the fact that Mum took the kids with her will have made him scared of losing them. You say time with the kids was offered, but maybe he felt it was all on her terms and not what he wanted.
What seems bizarre is - if it's 50/50 in the interim, why not just settle for that? Unless he really believes the allegations are true. Or unless he is so angry/jealous over the new man that he wants sole residency. But it would be foolish to lie and make false allegations.
Although a close family member - nobody else really knows what happens between a couple during a marriage.
Why is he accusing parental alienation? Is he getting to see the kids? Reading back, the fact that Mum took the kids with her will have made him scared of losing them. You say time with the kids was offered, but maybe he felt it was all on her terms and not what he wanted.
What seems bizarre is - if it's 50/50 in the interim, why not just settle for that? Unless he really believes the allegations are true. Or unless he is so angry/jealous over the new man that he wants sole residency. But it would be foolish to lie and make false allegations.
Although a close family member - nobody else really knows what happens between a couple during a marriage.
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I know this, but I do know that his allegations against another member of the family now are categorically untrue, as well as him lying multiple times about things during 50/50 including trying to bar the mother from attending school events like parents’ evening, so much so that the school wrote to both saying they would not get involved.
I suppose I just don’t understand the continued allegations as you say, when things are 50/50 already. Cafcass have said there are no issues. I am just so tired of his lies and distortions.
And yes, he has the kids 50/50. He claims they have been behaving differently with him and accuses mother of coaching them - the reason they are behaving differently (with both sides) is the total change to their lives. The mother wants them to see both parents and to coparent as best as possible but father still on war path, will not communicate, always talks about allegations and never about what is best for children.