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Advice on contact

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blindex

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So I'm one hearing away from a final hearing. Today I went to pick up my son directly from school for an overnight, but because my daughter did not attend nursery today my ex brought her over.

She was supposed to come with me, but the ex asked her if 'she wanted to come with her or daddy', and she said she wanted to stay with mum. I did not want to create a scene, or drive conflict and told her to stay with the mother instead and brought my son home for the overnight.

Due do my daughter's age, she's four, the mother is doing everything she can to drive a wedge between us...

I wonder if it will look bad in court that I did not try to bring my daughter with me.... Going forward all handovers will occur at school (this has been fine) but before the final order is implemented there might be another one or two these scenarios. I did email the mother politely and asked her not to do that again
 
It is the mother's job to make your daughter available to you. Putting the decision on a 4 year old was not reasonable of her and did not fulfill her responsibility.

I've had some of this from my ex at different stages. The solution for me was to inform my daughter of specific plans for next time we see eachother. I made charts so she could see the days in-between and recognise when to expect me, this really helped her be ready to come with me whatever devious moves were in play. Ritual and routine are really good for younger kids. Simple little things that make them say "we always do... when". Make her associate places/things with her time with you by repitition. This protects against the wedge.
 
Glad you've emailed your ask asking her not to do that again. One line you can add in future is "please fulfill your obligations under the Child Arrangements order, and explain to child that she comes to Dad today. It's your responsibility to encourage child spending time with me, not encourage her to do otherwise."

Should get easier when they're both at school. As long as your ex doesn't turn up at school on your nights! Like mine did.
 
I would agree with the details Ash has mentioned, today I have finished two days of giving evidence in my 10year case to obtain the contact with my son.

One key element that came out today in summing up was the huge importance as to 'why mother was not explaining, and encouraging my son to not only know about contact, but she was not getting him (and her) to understand what it is too'. There was a firm emphasis put against the mother that she has a responsibility to ensure that she educated my son in his understanding of his contact with Daddy, and mother obstinate attitute against an order is not a valid reason to do has she pleases. Good luck
 
Ten years! And you know what's annoying? They are stating the xxxxing obvious! The Mother is not encouraging the child - if she was, there wouldn't be a problem. My ex took that literally - oh I do "encourage" him. No she doesn't. They just need to tell them - you're at Dad's this week-end - ask him. They just need to respect an order and time with the other parent. Why does it take years, psychologist reports and so on just to show what we all know the ex is doing! Something needs speeding up very early on. Not all this waffle about "the parents" should agree blah blah. It's just - one parent should follow the court order or else!
 
I’m one hearing away from a final hearing. My son (8) started sleepovers two weeks ago and my daughter (4) will start in August. For many months we had unsupervised contact that went really well. In the
Last two weeks my daughter is refusing to come with me and she looks distressed. I had to leave her behind with mother / childminder. I emailed the mother asking for an urgent referral to a child psychologist. What else can I do? Three weeks ago I have a video of my very happy daughter on my shoulders asking when we are having a sleepover and now she’s saying she’s scared. Could that be she’s jealous of her brother? I don’t think so.
 
No I think it's your ex resisting this. Four year olds will pick up on a Mother's reluctance as well. This is your ex's responsibility - to teach your daughter that she goes to Dads x days a week and Mum is fine with it.

When you say one hearing a way from a final hearing (I like the positivity!) do you mean you have another hearing coming up soon - to see how progressing overnight time is going? If so this will be why your ex is doing this. So she can say at the next hearing - not going well.

I think I would also write to your ex and ask for changeovers to be from school, not directly parent to parent, as daughter is finding the transition difficult.

You need to be very careful asking for referral to a child psychologist, outside of the court proceedings. Courts don't like a parent doing that without them ordering it (which is a fiasco anyway because they rarely do order it) but it's for a good reason - that if one parent chooses the psychologist then it could lead to the child not having impartial help (ie a parent can abuse that situation, get pally with the psychologist and the child basically has no impartial person to talk to then - or the ex could choose a very feminist biased psychologist!). And - there are some rubbish psychologists.

It also does suggest you think there's something wrong with your child. As opposed to your ex manipulating the situation - this leaves the child without a voice as well. Maybe write to your ex again and say something like:

"I think our daughter is finding transitions difficult more and more and that this is partly because both parents are present. I propose that changeoevers be directly from school, with both parents telling the children - Dad will be picking you up tonight - or Mum will be picking you up tonight". I ask please that you encourage this with our daughter and let her know she and her brother are at Dad's tonight and she can have a call with you. Perhaps you could tell her it will be fun and all the nice things we will do and let her know you think this is best for her. If you're there and she thinks you will agree to her coming back with you, this is encouraging her not to come".

Everything you put in writing now, to your ex, can be used as evidence for or against you. My only concern with asking your ex about a child psychologist is this plays into her hands somewhat. So your ex can say at the next hearing - well I did try but she refused and blame the child and not take responsibility herself.

It may be that your ex is happy for the older child to come to you but is more possessive about the younger one. This is a failure of parenting on her part - pure and simple. If she said to your daughter - you're going to have a fantastic time at Dads overnight - it'll be fun - he has toys and nice things in your room. Then of course your daughter will want to come.

But your ex will be playing to Cafcass and their bias towards the Motherly bond.

Literally all your ex has to do is say - come and pick them up. And send daughter out of the house and tell her - off you go. Be good.
 
Hi Ash

We’re past section 7 report now. Final contact arrangements have been largely agreed. A final welfare hearing is scheduled to contest two issues. I want an extra day during the week and a ‘lives with’ order.
The section 7 report was a mixed bag, the officer treated mothers allegations as fact despite no FFH but noted that mother is extremely anxious about contact even though there have no safeguarding issues. He wrote that the mother might not be ready for greater contact when the children themselves are. Needless to say that she put three statements of hate one after another about the children not being safe with me. I’ve got glowing contact centre notes and contact has gone really well until my son started sleepover two weeks ago.
I had a changeover this week with the childminder and my daughter refused to come with me still. She feels distressed. She’s extremely possessive of both children
 
So it's clear your ex is resistant to overnights with you. I hate it when they make light of things and say "Mothers anxieties" - that's the oldest one in the book. What about Dad anxieties leaving kids with the Mother! And hardly seeing them? My ex played the "anxious mother" card and safety - after 8 years of troublefree parenting and she was good at acting! She is the least maternal mother I have ever met and actually quite an aggressive parent. She just played to Cafcass. Judges always saw through her and her manipulative ways, but she often fooled Cafcass.

I think it's concerning about your daughter because she is of an age that she will only do what Mum tells her and Mum may have created these anxieties in daughter to make her refuse. That is basically parental alienation. Sometimes parental alienation isn't even intentional - it occurs when the child picks up that the Mother is upset at them going to Dads so they "side" with the Mother. Tricky age as well. Your 8 year old will obviously be more mature. And he's a boy so a bit different.

I think this next hearing is crucial - your ex will use it to try and say things shouldn't progress and to try and drag things out. If you've already had a section 7 and it notes the Mother's anxiety, then I think you need to think of a solution/strategy before the hearing. It's a clever strategy your ex has, saying she can't force daughter to go and even you've seen her refusing to come. Why on earth would a child do that? When they know you and even lived with you before the relationship ended! I'll have a think. Whether your ex is there or not if your daughter has been told to refuse to go with Dad she will do that. So the onus should be on your ex to tell your daughter - everything will be lovely at Daddy's and I'll take you there etc etc. It's also clever because she'll say it's not her because your son is coming. Your son probably quite likes coming on his own too! More attention.
 
I don't know what to do, this cannot drag on further on and there is a solid history of positive contact. She used to run towards with me beaming with joy and I made a video of her three weeks ago asking when we will have a sleepover (she is on top of my shoulders). My son is having a blast of a time.
The next hearing is supposed to be the final welfare hearing. We've gone through the section 7 report, and it is not a case that my daughter is feeling like that because of her sleeping over. Hers are supposed to start in late August when my son starts staying for the whole weekend.
Mother's anxiety was also highlighted by the school in the section 7 report.
I'm going to send a second email to her with a calendar with the dates the children are supposed to be with me and how she is supposed to behave. I will also insist on a referral to a child psychologist. I see no other way
 
You need to be careful at this stage, with another hearing coming up. You don't want her accusing you of harrassing her. I would keep the tone of any emails very low key and not let your frustration show. They can be used as evidence as well. Your ex is probably doing this BECAUSE there's another welfare hearing coming up. She clearly doesn't want both children coming and having a great time at yours.

Also whatever you say, you can't make your ex do something. But the court might be able to do something that means she has less influence. Is your daughter at school yet or about to start school?

She wants it to look like it's a problem with you - as to why your daughter won't come. ie create a possible welfare issue.

I am wondering if it's best to keep things low key and keep your arguments for a position statement - when you can say - my daughter was enthusiastic about starting overnights, but I believe Mrs ex is discouraging this now and my daughter is refusing to come with me. This is out of character and completely out of the blue. etc etc. I would ask the court to ensure that Mrs Ex is aware it is her responsibility to ensure that time with her Father is promoted and encouraged, and not expressed as a negative thing.

Because at the moment she can say - well I "made her available" and I wasn't even there, but she still wouldn't go. Seriously? What child refuses to go home with a parent.

You need to think ahead with this I think. If your daughter starts school this September - think ahead to that and also put in the position statement that you think transitions would improve if they were directly to and from school from September. That's how that works - you're the only parent there. What is your daughter going to do then? No-one else to take her home. That will soon become normal.

Meanwhile it could be that emailing your ex is just playing into her hands. If you do email her I would keep it very formal and maybe say something like:

"Please can you ensure you let our daughter know that I will be picking her up on her court ordered nights with me and that she is to come with me. It is your responsibility to ensure this time takes place and to actively promote the positivity of her time with me."

Then at least you;ve got evidence that you have asked your ex to do this - gives her less of an excuse later. That evidence/email hints to the court that the Mother is helping create this refusal situation. And of course she has the power to make it happen! Just like she has the power to let daughter know what she can and can't eat.

I wouldn't mention psychologists - that might be playing into ex's hands too. Sending a calendar wiht the dates is good. It sounds like manipulaton to me. For example, just supposing your ex failed to let your daughter know you were picking her up that night - daughter wouldn't be expecting it. I think what I would do also is phone the nursery, the afternoon you're due to pick her up and say "please can you let her know that Dad, not Mum, is picking her up tonight". Make sure she knows - and hears it from someone neutral.
 
Re planned contact, I have a wall calendar and, when we all (whenever that is it happens that "we all") turn the month over and I specifically write when we are all together, school time and school holiday time, for that month. Just done so this weekend, and because of the time of year, incorporating Aug too.

While my Son is the eldest and lives exclusively with me, so understands forward plans, my Daughter also has knowledge of her future home life this way. It's a team effort :)


SS.
 
This is the fourth time in a row that my daughter does not want to join me and my son. I've already sent an email each time asking her to promote contact under the court order. The next hearing is in October and it is a final one. What to do? I want to report her for breach of the court order.
 
You could email the court and say that the order is being followed for your elder child, your son. But not for your younger child, your daughter. And the Mother creates situations where the daughter feels she can choose which parent to go with. And ask for an urgent directions hearing.

Whether you get a hearing before October is unknown - hopefully you will. If it's not possible, the Judge may issue some directions.
 
I have missed the last seven consecutive sessions as my daughter who is four now refuses to join me and my son.

I'm saw the children unsupervised for seven months without a hitch, but when my son started overnight, the mother freaked out and turned my daughter against me.

We are past the section 7 report and a final welfare hearing is coming in October.

I managed to get my daughter to see a child psychotherapist with 30 years of experience (including court experience).

What next? What is a sensible thing to ask from the judge? Any ideas?
 
Hi Blindex, there is some case law that can support you. Find below a copy/paste of some notes that I made to myself:

It's not "childcare" - he is their father, not a childminder.

Whilst your children's thoughts should be taken into consideration, they shouldn't have the burden of making such important - and adult - decisions placed on them. You and their father are the parents and should be the ones making such decisions.

What are the issues your daughter is having with her father? Did they begin before you separated? What is your relationship with him like (As a co-parent)?

If your 10yo said they didn't want to go to school, or wash their hair, or eat their supper, what would you say? This is what the President of the Family Division, Lord Justice Munby, said recently about children who are reluctant to have contact with a non-resident parent, in Re H-B (Contact) [2015] EWCA Civ 389, a case which had run for six years,

[75] …There are many things which they ought to do that children may not want to do or even refuse to do: going to the dentist, going to visit some “boring” elderly relative, going to school, doing homework or sitting an examination, the list is endless. The parent’s job, exercising all their parental skills, techniques and stratagems – which may include use of both the carrot and the stick and, in the case of the older child, reason and argument – is to get the child to do what it does not want to do. That the child’s refusal cannot as such be a justification for parental failure is clear: after all, children whose education or health is prejudiced by parental shortcomings may be taken away from their parents and put into public care.

[76] … what one can reasonably demand – not merely as a matter of law but also and much more fundamentally as a matter of natural parental obligation – is that the parent, by argument, persuasion, cajolement, blandishments, inducements, sanctions (for example, “grounding” or the confiscation of mobile phones, computers or other electronic equipment) or threats falling short of brute force, or by a combination of them, does their level best to ensure compliance. That is what one would expect of a parent whose rebellious teenage child is foolishly refusing to do GCSEs or A-Levels or “dropping out” into a life of drug-fuelled crime. Why should we expect any less of a parent whose rebellious teenage child is refusing to see her father?
Click to expand...
 
proud_dad said:
Hi Blindex, there is some case law that can support you. Find below a copy/paste of some notes that I made to myself:
Click to expand...
This is brilliant, many thanks.

My only hope is that since the court proceedings started, the many unsupervised contact sessions and supervised sessions went really well until the judge ordered overnights to start, first with my son, then with my daughter.

The overnights with my son who is eight are going really well as he won't let the mother brainwash him. But with my daughter whose contact remained the same until now deteriorated to the point of refusal because the mother is vehemently opposed to overnight contact, has serious mental health issues and my daughters' age (she is four).
 
Just some thoughts, might be teaching grandma to suck eggs.

I would think about writing to mum suggesting that you and her work together to ease the transition for your daughter. Say that you are open to any suggestions from her but that you have an idea to get things started.

The idea will depend on your daughter, but I would think of a handover location that will be a big magnet for her. Somewhere nearby, for my daughter it would be an ice cream shop, a wildlife centre, amusement arcade, or a soft play centre. It can then be a case of her being told "you are meeting with daddy to... on Wednesday". As soon as the handover is done things will be fine. She might cry for 5-10 minutes and say stuff like: "I miss mummy", "I want my mummy". My experience has been that telling my daughter anything to challenge her feelings just makes things worse. Saying something like: "I know its hard, it is normal to miss mummy when she is not here. I'm sure she is looking forward to seeing you again too. I miss my mummy sometimes" - gives my daughter a way out of the miss mummy hole.

Parents should not be leaving the burden a decision like this on the shoulders of a 4 year old child, children of that sort of age have to go to school whether they like it or not. This point can be made very softly in what you write. Something like: "it is our responsibility as parents to help DD with this in any way we can so that negative habits and the uncertainty that results do not become ingrained for her."

Your ex will probably ignore, but at least you have something that shows you were looking to work collaboratively and flexibly to make things work. She can explain why she refused to play ball in court.
 
Resolute said:
Just some thoughts, might be teaching grandma to suck eggs.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply. I think your proposal makes sense when there is genuine separation anxiety at play which is not my case. I managed to get my daughter to come with me once after cajoling her about swimming, but I had to bring her back to the mother after 40 minutes. She even refused to come into our home.

I did email the mother right when my daughter started refusing contact. I created a child friendly calendar with 'daddy days', 'mommy days' etc. I encouraged the mother to starting use 'I' statements in relation to contact (i.e. for her to tell our daughter 'I'll be very happy if you go with daddy', etc). All to no avail because she is terrorising our daughter against me.

My daughter is a different child. She became cold and frigthened of me.
 
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