Barrister or Solicitor?

[Grant55]

Hi. New to this site but finding some great information.

I am a respondent in a specific issue order and child arrangements order case. My ex wants to relocate 200 miles away. We currently have 50/50 shared care and that is not in dispute.

I have the first hearing, FHDRA in a few weeks. I have had a solicitor from the start and she will be attending court with me. My ex is using a McKenzie friend.

I have seen mention of Barristers on this forum and I understand they are different to Solicitors.

In short, should I be looking for my solicitor to appoint a barrister? A bit confused.

Many thanks

 

[Ash]

If the 50/50 is not in dispute, how has it been agreed to work if she moved 200 miles away? Barristers are more like experts in hearings and case law and advocating for you. Solicitors are more paperwork based. Some will advocate in court but not all.

If you can do some of the basic paperwork yourself (and sometimes there isn't much until a final hearing) you could use a direct access barrister - who you deal with directly. If you can afford it, you could use both a solicitor and a barrister.

If it's anything to do with relocation I think you need a good barrister.

 

[Grant55]

If the 50/50 is not in dispute, how has it been agreed to work if she moved 200 miles away? Barristers are more like experts in hearings and case law and advocating for you. Solicitors are more paperwork based. Some will advocate in court but not all.

If you can do some of the basic paperwork yourself (and sometimes there isn't much until a final hearing) you could use a direct access barrister - who you deal with directly. If you can afford it, you could use both a solicitor and a barrister.

If it's anything to do with relocation I think you need a good barrister.

The 50/50 is something we agreed to since we separated 5 years ago. Up until this point there have been no court orders, consent or otherwise as the arrangement has worked very well.

The issue is her desire to move, to be closer to her family, I can't move for financial and work reasons so the 50/50 would be unworkable. She is applying for an SIO and CAO which obviously blows a massive hole in the current arrangements.

Money is no object. I will put myself into debt if need be, this is too important. My solicitor quoted £7.5k to £10k for the entire process. She charges £325 per hour. I imagine a barrister will be considerably more.

 

[Ash]

It could be worth just using a barrister then. Barristers tend to charge a fixed fee for a full day or half day hearing. So yes they charge a lot but it can work out cheaper in the long run. So for a good barrister you'd be looking at about £4,000 for a full day hearing (plus vat) and half that for a half day hearing. If you had two more hearings you'd therefore be talking about £6,000 or £7,000 and you could use one that's an expert in relocation issues.

If you use a direct access barrister, they write up any orders (so the orders are spot on and correct). If you use a solicitor or a solicitor and barrister, then the solicitor writes up the orders and I've had a few badly written orders from solicitors!

The one time you might need a solicitor would be before a final hearing possibly, to help with the bundle and constructing a statement/exchanging statements and evidence to protocol. You could use a tailored approach and just hire a solicitor for a one off job before a final hearing.

Personally I prefer dealing directly with a barrister. If you use a solicitor, the solicitor deals with the barrister and you don't get much direct input.

What are your ex's reasons for moving? If she has a valid reason, like a new job, or moving in with a partner, the chances are they will accept her moving. Unless the court feels she is doing it to disrupt the current arrangements. Then it comes down to - who does the child live with during term time. If it's been 50/50 to date you could argue that it should be with you and the child not be removed from a familiar location and school etc.

If it can be agreed there have been situations where it's been "lives with both parents" at a distance - mostly term time with one parent apart from one week-end a month, and nearly all the school holidays with the other parent. It wouldn't be that common for a court to order that though and more likely to be by consent.

This might give an idea though. Some case law on it.

Case Law "Shared Residence" by long distance

The article below lists a number of "shared residence" cases whereby parents either lived a long distance apart, or even in another country. They are called "Shared residence" because these cases pre-date the Child Arrangements Programme which...

www.dadswithkids.co.uk

 

[Daddy]

Solicitors mainly do your paperwork and charge a fortune for it.
Barrister's argue your case in court using your paperwork.

A good direct access barrister will help with paperwork, proof read draft position statements etc. They are experts in court.
DA Barrister's charge per hearing so could end up being cheaper than solicitors.

Also, Solicitors instruct barristers to represent their clients in court, but I doubt they would instruct the expensive ones because that would be money out of their pocket.

 

[Ash]

Sorry I just saw you said she wants to move closer to her family. That is one reason that can be accepted, but maybe not such a strong reason as for a job or to move in with a new partner and if you can show she is just moving to disrupt the child arrangements or not considering the childrens need for stability and both parents, that gives a chance. Basically then if the court decide the kids live with you it's up to her if she still wants to move or not! How old are the kids?

 

[Resolute]

All of what follows is ball park and assuming things do not go shaped.

Barrister is per hearing. It is a fixed fee depending on the amount of time. The fact that 50/50 is informal makes a barrister all the more important to my mind.

Rates are along these lines:

1-2k for an hour hearing

2-3k for half a day

3-5k for a full day

Above are not the cheapest or the most expensive. A short set of proceedings would be two hearings. If things get nasty, allegations etc, it can take multiple hearings including some that go over several days.

6-10k + vat for up to 3 hearings should be enough.

 

[Ash]

Solicitors mainly do your paperwork and charge a fortune for it.
Barrister's argue your case in court using your paperwork.

A good direct access barrister will help with paperwork, proof read draft position statements etc. They are experts in court.
DA Barrister's charge per hearing so could end up being cheaper than solicitors.

Also, Solicitors instruct barristers to represent their clients in court, but I doubt they would instruct the expensive ones because that would be money out of their pocket.

Following on from that, if it's direct access, most barristers will look over any final statement for you as well and give the odd tip.

 

[Ash]

Put it like this, for my big case I used solicitors and later a barrister for final hearing. It ended up costing me 13k. 4k of that was for the barrister, and worth every penny. Most of the rest was money down the drain. The last solicitor was "ok". But that was my third one as the first two just ran up a load of bills and got nowhere.

It depends how many hearings as to how much it would cost. If a half day and a final hearing it could be as little as 6k plus vat for a good barrister. They are experts in court and can persuade judges. The key is to have a better barrister than your ex!

 

[Grant55]

It could be worth just using a barrister then. Barristers tend to charge a fixed fee for a full day or half day hearing. So yes they charge a lot but it can work out cheaper in the long run. So for a good barrister you'd be looking at about £4,000 for a full day hearing (plus vat) and half that for a half day hearing. If you had two more hearings you'd therefore be talking about £6,000 or £7,000 and you could use one that's an expert in relocation issues.

If you use a direct access barrister, they write up any orders (so the orders are spot on and correct). If you use a solicitor or a solicitor and barrister, then the solicitor writes up the orders and I've had a few badly written orders from solicitors!

The one time you might need a solicitor would be before a final hearing possibly, to help with the bundle and constructing a statement/exchanging statements and evidence to protocol. You could use a tailored approach and just hire a solicitor for a one off job before a final hearing.

Personally I prefer dealing directly with a barrister. If you use a solicitor, the solicitor deals with the barrister and you don't get much direct input.

What are your ex's reasons for moving? If she has a valid reason, like a new job, or moving in with a partner, the chances are they will accept her moving. Unless the court feels she is doing it to disrupt the current arrangements. Then it comes down to - who does the child live with during term time. If it's been 50/50 to date you could argue that it should be with you and the child not be removed from a familiar location and school etc.

If it can be agreed there have been situations where it's been "lives with both parents" at a distance - mostly term time with one parent apart from one week-end a month, and nearly all the school holidays with the other parent. It wouldn't be that common for a court to order that though and more likely to be by consent.

This might give an idea though. Some case law on it.

Case Law "Shared Residence" by long distance

The article below lists a number of "shared residence" cases whereby parents either lived a long distance apart, or even in another country. They are called "Shared residence" because these cases pre-date the Child Arrangements Programme which...

www.dadswithkids.co.uk

Thank you so much for all of that. Despite having a solicitor I still feel totally lost. I think your suggestions regarding a barrister make sense and I'll look at the options of solicitor appointed or I deal directly.

My ex just wants to be closer to her family. We moved to our current location 10 years ago as we couldn't afford to live where we moved away from. That did mean moving away from both of our families. We then started a family where we are currently living. She doesn't work and currently isn't in a relationship. The 50/50 encompasses term time and school holidays equally. Neither of us do more than the other. We both do school runs, parents evenings, medical appointments, after school clubs when the children are living with each of us. Son when they are with me I do everything associated with their day to day care.

I don't believe she is doing it to disrupt the current arrangements and would like me to move too. I can't afford it and I have a full time job I've had since we moved here.

 

[Ash]

It could be worth just using a barrister then. Barristers tend to charge a fixed fee for a full day or half day hearing. So yes they charge a lot but it can work out cheaper in the long run. So for a good barrister you'd be looking at about £4,000 for a full day hearing (plus vat) and half that for a half day hearing. If you had two more hearings you'd therefore be talking about £6,000 or £7,000 and you could use one that's an expert in relocation issues.

If you use a direct access barrister, they write up any orders (so the orders are spot on and correct). If you use a solicitor or a solicitor and barrister, then the solicitor writes up the orders and I've had a few badly written orders from solicitors!

The one time you might need a solicitor would be before a final hearing possibly, to help with the bundle and constructing a statement/exchanging statements and evidence to protocol. You could use a tailored approach and just hire a solicitor for a one off job before a final hearing.

Personally I prefer dealing directly with a barrister. If you use a solicitor, the solicitor deals with the barrister and you don't get much direct input.

What are your ex's reasons for moving? If she has a valid reason, like a new job, or moving in with a partner, the chances are they will accept her moving. Unless the court feels she is doing it to disrupt the current arrangements. Then it comes down to - who does the child live with during term time. If it's been 50/50 to date you could argue that it should be with you and the child not be removed from a familiar location and school etc.

If it can be agreed there have been situations where it's been "lives with both parents" at a distance - mostly term time with one parent apart from one week-end a month, and nearly all the school holidays with the other parent. It wouldn't be that common for a court to order that though and more likely to be by consent.

This might give an idea though. Some case law on it.

Case Law "Shared Residence" by long distance

The article below lists a number of "shared residence" cases whereby parents either lived a long distance apart, or even in another country. They are called "Shared residence" because these cases pre-date the Child Arrangements Programme which...

www.dadswithkids.co.uk

Sorry just noticed that link doesn't work any more - I'll try and find the case.

 

[Ash]

Thank you so much for all of that. Despite having a solicitor I still feel totally lost. I think your suggestions regarding a barrister make sense and I'll look at the options of solicitor appointed or I deal directly.

My ex just wants to be closer to her family. We moved to our current location 10 years ago as we couldn't afford to live where we moved away from. That did mean moving away from both of our families. We then started a family where we are currently living. She doesn't work and currently isn't in a relationship. The 50/50 encompasses term time and school holidays equally. Neither of us do more than the other. We both do school runs, parents evenings, medical appointments, after school clubs when the children are living with each of us. Son when they are with me I do everything associated with their day to day care.

I don't believe she is doing it to disrupt the current arrangements and would like me to move too. I can't afford it and I have a full time job I've had since we moved here.

Ok do you think she would be amenable to "lives with both parents" at a distance? ie the kids live with you during term time and with her for all the holidays except two weeks a year? Probably not because then she'd get short week-ends every other week-end.

So would she be amenable to that the other way round? Eg children move with her, but spend all the school holidays, bar two weeks in the summer, with you, and every other week-end with you with shared travel? That could be lives with both parents on a near 50/50 basis.

You say she just wants to be nearer her family but she has to consider the kids wellbeing as well - with both their parents.

Personally I would go with a direct access barrister and just use a solicitor before a final hearing, to help with bundle and statement. You'll build more of a rapport with the barrister. It needs to be the right one for the job. I find solicitors can be a bit lazy and assume the children will live with the Mother - that;s a generalisation but you want someone who will fight your corner for the best outcome possible.

 

[Grant55]

Ok do you think she would be amenable to "lives with both parents" at a distance? ie the kids live with you during term time and with her for all the holidays except two weeks a year? Probably not because then she'd get short week-ends every other week-end.

So would she be amenable to that the other way round? Eg children move with her, but spend all the school holidays, bar two weeks in the summer, with you, and every other week-end with you with shared travel? That could be lives with both parents on a near 50/50 basis.

You say she just wants to be nearer her family but she has to consider the kids wellbeing as well - with both their parents.

Personally I would go with a direct access barrister and just use a solicitor before a final hearing, to help with bundle and statement. You'll build more of a rapport with the barrister. It needs to be the right one for the job. I find solicitors can be a bit lazy and assume the children will live with the Mother - that;s a generalisation but you want someone who will fight your corner for the best outcome possible.

Definitely not. We have discussed that.

 

[Grant55]

Sorry I just saw you said she wants to move closer to her family. That is one reason that can be accepted, but maybe not such a strong reason as for a job or to move in with a new partner and if you can show she is just moving to disrupt the child arrangements or not considering the childrens need for stability and both parents, that gives a chance. Basically then if the court decide the kids live with you it's up to her if she still wants to move or not! How old are the kids?

Kids are 9 and 5.

 

[Ash]

Definitely not. We have discussed that.

Ok so she wants to be the primary carer, move 200 miles away and what, have you do all the travelling every other weekend and half the holidays? So it would no longer be "lives with both parents"? That doesn't consider the kids stability that they have been used to for 5 years.

Would you be happy with seeing them most of the school holidays and every other week-end? It would be tough after seeing them every few days.

 

[Grant55]

Ok so she wants to be the primary carer, move 200 miles away and what, have you do all the travelling every other weekend and half the holidays? So it would no longer be "lives with both parents"? That doesn't consider the kids stability that they have been used to for 5 years.

Would you be happy with seeing them most of the school holidays and every other week-end? It would be tough after seeing them every few days.

She knows I can't move so I guess yes, primary carer and I get to see the children once every two weeks, limited school holidays as I won't be able to get half of the school holidays off work, (bear in mind their age and can't be left alone) and no doubt I'll be paying Child Maintenance as the cherry in top.

 

[Ash]

So is your plan to argue against the children being moved away?

 

[Ash]

If your FHDRA is in a few weeks, I'd get a barrister lined up for then. You could decide whether to de-instruct the solicitor or not. I wouldn't want to just have a solicitor for a relocation hearing.

I think you need to have a plan for what you want to argue for.

 

[Grant55]

So is your plan to argue against the children being moved away?

Sorry, yes. Status Quo is the term my solicitor has used.

 

[Grant55]

All of what follows is ball park and assuming things do not go shaped.

Barrister is per hearing. It is a fixed fee depending on the amount of time. The fact that 50/50 is informal makes a barrister all the more important to my mind.

Rates are along these lines:

1-2k for an hour hearing

2-3k for half a day

3-5k for a full day

Above are not the cheapest or the most expensive. A short set of proceedings would be two hearings. If things get nasty, allegations etc, it can take multiple hearings including some that go over several days.

6-10k + vat for up to 3 hearings should be enough.

Ok. I appreciate they are ball park. So looking at say £3-5k for a full day, would that generally include the prep work that would be needed? Presumably time with me to understand my case?